|
Post by bubba on Apr 30, 2016 8:28:07 GMT -5
Yes, I know that it's early, the draft is still going on, and that the off-season moves may not be completed. But, is the current roster for DL/OL better or worse than last year?
|
|
fladam
On the Practice Squad
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by fladam on Apr 30, 2016 8:41:56 GMT -5
of course its better. Is healthy unlike most of last year and added a new shinny big body to each with a new top notch coach to make them shinny and pretty. I predict a top ten if not better oline this year(bennett to help there too). D line will be a little more of a challenge, but the front 7 talent is more balanced this year i think.
|
|
|
Post by patseng on Apr 30, 2016 8:42:51 GMT -5
Hard to tell. Looks like they moved from a penetrating 43 DL to the old 34 bulk DL I wasn't a big fan of getting no pressure on QB's pre 2014 but we'll have to wait and see how this one turns out. But they completely swap what their DL does in a single season
As for OL they added a couple players without losing any big pieces so they should be better but it depends how much they improve
|
|
|
Post by prolate0spheroid on Apr 30, 2016 10:08:28 GMT -5
Hard to tell. Looks like they moved from a penetrating 43 DL to the old 34 bulk DL I wasn't a big fan of getting no pressure on QB's pre 2014 but we'll have to wait and see how this one turns out. But they completely swap what their DL does in a single season As for OL they added a couple players without losing any big pieces so they should be better but it depends how much they improve I pretty much agree. I think the OL should be better assuming health of all their players, more experience for last year's rookies, and better coaching with Scar. Vollmer, though, could be a bit of a wildcard. I just worry he's breaking down. I like Solder and Vollmer as starting tackles. But if Vollmer starts to decline or Solder doesn't come back 100%, we still could have issues there. The interior should just get better, I think, because nearly all the players are young. I think the front seven is harder to judge. If Chris Long plays as well or better than Chandler Jones and guys like Flowers turn out to be decent, we should have similar edge speed. The middle of the line seems to have lost some speed with Hicks and Easley gone. That's a bit of a concern. Hightower and Collins are excellent LBs, but it gets a bit less certain behind them. McClellin could turn out to be a good third LB and there are some other younger guys vying for a spot. Of course, Chung is almost the third LB anyway, so maybe it's not quite as unsettled as it looks on paper.
|
|
|
Post by lowfbiq on Apr 30, 2016 10:21:08 GMT -5
Depends on scheme and fit on D with new additions and changes
On OL the line will be better because of health alone, at least to start, not to mention the addition of Scar. The miscommunication on last years line in the post season was the most alarming thing to me. Much more so than the physical play. Not protecting inside-out, letting guys have free runs, not being able to pass guys off to the inside and work your way out to the perimeter for help, watching the ball instead of the man in front of you during the silent count when you are on the perimeter. A lot of fundamental mistakes, disorganization, and communication problems. Just don't see that being the case or nearly as bad with Scar back.
|
|
|
Post by prolate0spheroid on Apr 30, 2016 10:50:34 GMT -5
Yes, the defensive scheme is always hard to predict. I'm hearing a lot of people say 3-4, but I'm not so sure it's that simple. First of all, I'm not even sure the term "3-4" means anything anymore. The way defenses are designed nowadays, you can't easily distinguish between 4-3 and 3-4. Heck, I find it hard to even categorize people by position in the front seven. I tend to think of three "positions": interior line player, edge player, and behind the line player. BB's old two-gapping 3-4 had thee interior line players, one or two edge players and two or three behind the line players. More recently, it's been two interior players, two edge players, and three behind the line players (one of whom is often a nominal safety). I tend to think it stays that way this coming season. The real difference is whether the two interior players are more fast penetrators or big bodies. Last year, those two interior guys were either big bodies or fast penetrators depending on down. Now, I don't see the fast penetrators being on the roster. But maybe he moves guys like Grissom to the interior more on passing downs. Or maybe he really does something totally different. Hard to predict . . . but always interesting, given what a creative coach he is.
|
|
|
Post by homefield on Apr 30, 2016 10:56:55 GMT -5
With Scar back, injuries healed and the additions of Cooper and Thuney, the OL is much, much better.
With the loss of Jones, Easley and Hicks and adding Knighton, Long and Valentine, I would say NO. The beef is better but they need to add a pass rusher. If they add someone like Day and/or Henry, I'll feel much better.
|
|
|
Post by homefield on Apr 30, 2016 11:02:55 GMT -5
Yes, the defensive scheme is always hard to predict. I'm hearing a lot of people say 3-4, but I'm not so sure it's that simple. First of all, I'm not even sure the term "3-4" means anything anymore. The way defenses are designed nowadays, you can't easily distinguish between 4-3 and 3-4. Heck, I find it hard to even categorize people by position in the front seven. I tend to think of three "positions": interior line player, edge player, and behind the line player. BB's old two-gapping 3-4 had thee interior line players, one or two edge players and two or three behind the line players. More recently, it's been two interior players, two edge players, and three behind the line players (one of whom is often a nominal safety). I tend to think it stays that way this coming season. The real difference is whether the two interior players are more fast penetrators or big bodies. Last year, those two interior guys were either big bodies or fast penetrators depending on down. Now, I don't see the fast penetrators being on the roster. But maybe he moves guys like Grissom to the interior more on passing downs. Or maybe he really does something totally different. Hard to predict . . . but always interesting, given what a creative coach he is. Yes I agree. Nickel has become the base defense. 3-4 and 4-3's have become the sub-packages in this league. And like you mentioned, I don't even know what to call it sometimes. 3-3-5, 4-2-5, whatever. There is almost always 5 DB's on the field now.
|
|
|
Post by portfolio1 on Apr 30, 2016 18:15:32 GMT -5
Echo that health and Dante add up to automatically better to start. I dont expect THuney to have much of an impact this year EXCEPT if in the last third of the season he catches on as part of an interior role (rather than T) as a pass blocker upgrade. I suspect he adds more value to interior pass blocking. Cooper is a real wldcard. He could be a total bust cut before the season even begins or he could be our best guard for the next half dozen years or more. If anyone can turn him into the latter it is Dante. And that could mean a big step forward for this line.
As far as the D line, the combination of Long and development of Grissom or FLowers and the comfort level of Sheard here could offset the loss of Chandler Jones. Hard to expect that but it is possible. Long when healthy was a very good player. Sheard was very good last year and Grissom looked like he might develop.
Loosing Hicks was a meaningful loss. Easley was more of a big disappointment than lost play on the field as he had some moments but few. So his loss was more about a talent not making it here (he could blossom elsewhere). This year's rookie along with the offseason pickup (Kuhn?) could offset the loss of Hicks (and yes Chris Jones and Sileaga).
All in all I suspect we essentially break even on the D line off of last year. Well, one way it could be a noted improvement is if Brown really blossoms (and Grissom or Flowers realllly blossoms).
Bottom line is if the O line comes back healthy and with any development by younger players we will go deep in the playoffs. Maybe we all have a followup to Kevin Faulk's come SB trophy time!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 22:33:31 GMT -5
Other than Solder and Vollmer, the 3rd round OL pick is the highest OLman taken in over a decade. That is a good thing. I would have liked to see some or all of the four other high-end draft picks wasted on backup QBs who have amounted to nothing in the last 9 drafts used for the OL. The record of drafting for the OL in light of having the GOAT QB has been deplorable.
|
|
|
Post by bubba on May 1, 2016 6:51:36 GMT -5
Not sure if I buy into the better health perspective for the OL. Yes, there were injuries this past year on the OL that could not be overcome, and that Scar wasn't around to coach players up. That being said, I'm not convinced the OL that we had during our SB year the 2014/2015 season was good at all. IMO, the OL weaknesses from 2014 were compensated for by Brady's ability to release the ball much quicker than any other QB and having Edelman to throw to. Last year, Brady's still quick release wasn't quick enough. He was pummeled more - and threw the ball away more often than any other season that I can remember.
IMO, the OL HAS TO be much, much better than the past 2 years - and is probably the biggest problem for the team. At Brady's age, he can only take so many more hits - and may be one hit away from a significant injury if opponents are given a clear shot at him.
With Browner and Revis long gone, the role of the front 7 is more important than ever to get the defense off the field and to make clutch defensive plays/stops when needed (more akin to the 2014 championship year). It's still to early whether the Patriots have made up for the defensive losses (Jones, Mayo, etc...). When BB drafts yet another short, underweight DB - it's clear that the front 7 has to play better and be able to get to the opposing QB when needed.
|
|
|
Post by prolate0spheroid on May 1, 2016 7:01:01 GMT -5
I think Brady's quick release has always made the OL look better than it is. But last season, the loss of Solder and the inability to find stability in the interior had a major effect. In 2014, it was putting Wendell at guard that stabilized the line.
I'm not sure Brady's release got any slower last season. In fact, early in the season when he had all his receivers, pundits were marvelling at how fast his release was.
|
|
mellymel6
On the Game Day Roster
Retired and loving it!
Posts: 400
Likes: 92
|
Post by mellymel6 on May 1, 2016 9:17:34 GMT -5
Impossible to say at this point for either set...I'd like to think getting a healthy Solder back and having Scar the Magic Man will make a perceptable difference, plus , hopefully, will having a better strength and conditioning regime in place which might lead to better "luck" with injuries so they'll be better cohesion in starting lineups on the OL....Did we draft a "real" OT? No, more of a Utility type OL (Thuney) we're fond of, but he has Scar's approval, so be it, and he's very atlethic and can always get stronger without losing quickness and speed. But we also drafted a big strong "tough guy" (Karas) with rich blood lines who knows how the game is played and is definitely a developmental player if he doesn't make the squad.
The DL is a far more murky area. The guys who were on the roster before the draft and before the FA moves are the key to how the DL will play.Two of the players drafted previously by BB to play OLB/DE have to step up and play significant and meaningful snaps for the D this season. Flowers, Grissom and Johnson all have to make huge strides this year for this team's D to stay playing at a championship level.
|
|
|
Post by lowfbiq on May 2, 2016 20:06:45 GMT -5
As far as the Oline goes...
I simply think you try and draft for only what you need to be successful. We all know you can't afford everyone, that you win with defense and you strengthen areas with better players that can not be helped with scheme or the strength of another nearby player/s.
Is Brady the GOAT or isn't he? I think we all agree he is. Generally speaking he allows you to draft the way you do. He does not require the best pass blocking line because he does not need the time, generally speaking. There are exceptions but that is the rule more often than not. If you can't lean on and take advantage of having the GOAT to help you and allow you to focus on the complimentary side of the football then what is the point. Yes you have to hit on the players you draft and the Pats nor any other team in the league has done that every single time. The average rate for a strong roster is about 30% success, maybe 40% for a weak roster or 60-70% fail in the draft.
Frankly I think you can add the WR's into the same argument as the Oline. If you have the GOAT to put the ball in there with outstanding anticipation and accuracy then you do not need guys who have to generate a whole foot or two of separation because the GOAT can stick it in the spot only his guy can get at it.
To me if I am team building I am not taking my best player, paying him the most money and saying OK what can I do to make his life and job the absolute easiest most cushy possible at the expense and stress of other areas. If I was going to do that I would not be paying him the most. Yes you want to keep him safe but other than that its like paying a guy in your company the most money to do the easiest task in the place, with no challenges or obstacles to over come. Salary Cap, you rob Peter to pay Paul as much as you can and still be successful. Just my opinion. The Offense has been in the top 5 in points scored per game forever, I think they are doing quite OK.
I think the real problem, as I've said many times, is people focus on the last thing they saw. Two yrs of Gug, I do not think he was very good. The line was unprepared and confused too often. The playoffs, injuries to multiple offensive linemen(solder, Vollmer, Waddle, Cannon, Jackson, Stork), interior youth(Jackson, Andrews, Mason), injuries at WR(LaFell, Dobson, Edelman, was there another?), injuries at RB(Blount, Lewis), playing in hostile territory with a silent count all game, etc. That is a whole lot of shit to overcome. You change or mess with even a single component in a finely tuned machine and it might have some issue. You start changing and messing with 14 of those components? No NFL teams roster is so deep to overcome a significant amount of injuries and changing responsibilities; ask Ozzie Newsome how that worked out for him and the Ravens last season.
|
|
|
Post by tcal2 on May 2, 2016 21:18:59 GMT -5
I think Lewis will make the OL look good for as long as he stays healthy. The DL, I have no clue yet.
|
|
|
Post by paulk on May 2, 2016 21:26:08 GMT -5
The OL was terrible last year. All of the tackles wound up on injured reserve. The guards played like rookies because they were rookies. The OL is far better this year because they're all healthy and experienced. The newly drafted guard probably won't start this year.
3-4 and 4-3 lines go in and out of fashion. BB started the 3-4 trend. Then so many teams were drafting away the limited supply of 3-4 linemen that BB switched to a hybrid 3-4 vs 4-3. Now that the NFL is back in balance, BB is clearly shifting the DL to the old predominantly 3-4 alignment that was so good for him a decade ago. He'll have an adequate 3-4 nose tackle by perhaps November in Valentine, but the guy still needs experience and workout bonuses. Malcolm Brown was quite good last year but he's going to blossom this year. Flowers will get better too.
I'm going to say that the new DL will be the equal of last year's DL for the first two months. Starting in November, barring two or more injuries, they'll be a little better. Note that the 2015 strength and training coach was cashiered, probably for relative incompetence and for a massive IR list in 2015.
|
|
|
Post by PatsRule on May 3, 2016 5:11:14 GMT -5
Overall, it seems that the Defense in general has switched around a bit from last year.
DBs: If you recall, last year, this time, we were all wondering how we would cope w/o Revis. We did quite all right. Butler and Ryan were quite good. We don't have that kind of gut wrenching feeling this year. Quite the opposite, I feel our secondary is in great shape with couple of great looking draftees. LBs: The LB corp is great. If Shea McClellin works out, we will be in great shape, if not, there is a particularly steep drop off in case of injuries. DTs: The DT position I think is in better shape, but only if "pot roast" is not a bust like Haynesworth (we got that bum off Washington too). DEs: I think the real question mark is here. Not that Chandler Jones was the North Star, but he had great moments and we have no one like that. Nink, Sheard, Long, Grissom & Flowers. We seem a bit weak there. But BB will mask it; Only one drawback, no one will ever know!
So overall, with changes and all, I would not be surprised if we were like last year - very good.
Quite frankly, last year, the STs lost us at least two games and sucked otherwise. So as close as AFCCG was, the ST put us in a terrible position to play in Denver. That Eagles game, ugh.
|
|
|
Post by rkarp on May 3, 2016 5:40:20 GMT -5
OL-I am not concerned. I did not think the OL played poorly last year, I thought the OL was injured. Solder out. Vollmer ankle. Cannon foot. Kline shoulder. Jackson knee. Stork concussion. If healthy, I am fine to role with Vollmer/Mason/Andrews/Kline/Solder with Cannon/Jackson/Stork as the back ups. Also fine with Wardle/Thuney/Cooper finding spots to fit. I can see 9 guys here.
DL-I am not as confident. I happen to have thought Easley played very, very well last year. Ditto Hicks. I also thought Siligia was very good against the run. Brown is ascending for sure. But Branch and Knighton we just dont know what shape they will be in this year, and Kuhn and Kearse were just not good players with the Jints and Skins respectively. Flowers and Grissom showed nothing last year. I do like Sheard, Nink and Long...imo, Hicks was lost for short money. He should have been retained. also, imo Easley should have played out thru camp.
|
|
danpat
3rd String but playing on Special Teams
Posts: 832
Likes: 283
|
Post by danpat on May 3, 2016 6:08:42 GMT -5
We'll find out about the O-line soon enough, if the suspension isn't stayed. 4 games with JimmyG, who likely needs an extra second to release the ball will tell us a lot. But just as important there needs to be better run blocking than what we saw last year, where after Week 6 (or around that time) it seemed they couldn't get more than 2 yards per rush attempt. Health alone should mean improvement, so I'm counting on it.
D-line is a question mark to me. Jones, Hicks, Easley, and Siliga are all pretty good players, with Jones almost elite. They've been replaced with some solid veterans and some potentially good young players. Overall I think the D-line will take a step back.
|
|
|
Post by thejuice on May 3, 2016 6:19:09 GMT -5
Other than Solder and Vollmer, the 3rd round OL pick is the highest OLman taken in over a decade. That is a good thing. I would have liked to see some or all of the four other high-end draft picks wasted on backup QBs who have amounted to nothing in the last 9 drafts used for the OL. The record of drafting for the OL in light of having the GOAT QB has been deplorable. In recent years, absolutely. The Jimmy g pick I'm ok with, but the other 3, you're right. Id love to see what, if any, really good ol guys we could've drafted on those scenarios, but im to lazy to look right now
|
|
|
Post by rkarp on May 3, 2016 7:16:58 GMT -5
Other than Solder and Vollmer, the 3rd round OL pick is the highest OLman taken in over a decade. That is a good thing. I would have liked to see some or all of the four other high-end draft picks wasted on backup QBs who have amounted to nothing in the last 9 drafts used for the OL. The record of drafting for the OL in light of having the GOAT QB has been deplorable. we have seen with BB and Scar, that is not what they do. other than Solder, Light and Mankins, they draft mid round, late round or UDFA and then try to coach and develop. for the most part it has worked out pretty well. also, Scar has had a strong voice in picking his groceries. the past 2 years has been a mix of Scar type players and Googs type players, and I think we saw the disconnect. I am ok with the system as it sits, but Scar is up there in years. what is he going to do, coach 1 or 2 more years? the team went from a pulling and trapping OL to trying to be a move them off the LOS OL..most if not all players cannot play both styles.
|
|
|
Post by tanbass on May 3, 2016 7:52:41 GMT -5
Two problems with last years OL......injuries & coaching. That OL changed the second that Scar left, and it showed bigtime. Add in injuries across the board, and its a mess. Now Scar is back, and they should all be healthy. I think it's a no brainer that they will be better this year.
Front 7 remains to be seen. Hard to tell what players will step up and make a difference. I agree with Melly...so much depends on younger players making an impact and taking that next step.
|
|
|
Post by rkarp on May 3, 2016 8:37:56 GMT -5
Two problems with last years OL......injuries & coaching. That OL changed the second that Scar left, and it showed bigtime. Add in injuries across the board, and its a mess. Now Scar is back, and they should all be healthy. I think it's a no brainer that they will be better this year. Front 7 remains to be seen. Hard to tell what players will step up and make a difference. I agree with Melly...so much depends on younger players making an impact and taking that next step. Scar-prefers OL pulling, trapping (even the C and T) more mobile, lighter weight Googs-prefers smash mouth, straight ahead, longer arms, good in a confined space Solder was more Scar. Mason was more Scar. Stork was more Googs. Andrews was more Scar. Cannon was more Scar. Vollmer was more Scar. Wardle was more Googs. Wednell was more Scar. Kline was more Googs.
|
|
|
Post by patslifer on May 3, 2016 8:56:31 GMT -5
Overall, it seems that the Defense in general has switched around a bit from last year. DBs: If you recall, last year, this time, we were all wondering how we would cope w/o Revis. We did quite all right. Butler and Ryan were quite good. We don't have that kind of gut wrenching feeling this year. Quite the opposite, I feel our secondary is in great shape with couple of great looking draftees. LBs: The LB corp is great. If Shea McClellin works out, we will be in great shape, if not, there is a particularly steep drop off in case of injuries. DTs: The DT position I think is in better shape, but only if "pot roast" is not a bust like Haynesworth (we got that bum off Washington too). DEs: I think the real question mark is here. Not that Chandler Jones was the North Star, but he had great moments and we have no one like that. Nink, Sheard, Long, Grissom & Flowers. We seem a bit weak there. But BB will mask it; Only one drawback, no one will ever know! So overall, with changes and all, I would not be surprised if we were like last year - very good. Quite frankly, last year, the STs lost us at least two games and sucked otherwise. So as close as AFCCG was, the ST put us in a terrible position to play in Denver. That Eagles game, ugh. Good post man. I would say that BB has also improved ST via the offseason so far. A few of those kids he drafted are ST demons, and he signed a couple of FA ones as well. I expect a big jump in our ST play this year.
|
|
|
Post by patslifer on May 3, 2016 9:04:43 GMT -5
Two problems with last years OL......injuries & coaching. That OL changed the second that Scar left, and it showed bigtime. Add in injuries across the board, and its a mess. Now Scar is back, and they should all be healthy. I think it's a no brainer that they will be better this year. Front 7 remains to be seen. Hard to tell what players will step up and make a difference. I agree with Melly...so much depends on younger players making an impact and taking that next step. Scar-prefers OL pulling, trapping (even the C and T) more mobile, lighter weight Googs-prefers smash mouth, straight ahead, longer arms, good in a confined space Solder was more Scar. Mason was more Scar. Stork was more Googs. Andrews was more Scar. Cannon was more Scar. Vollmer was more Scar. Wardle was more Googs. Wednell was more Scar. Kline was more Googs. So we have a a Scar of Google or GoogleScar OL now? Thuney seems like a perfect Scar OL prospect. I think he is going to compete early for playing time. He needs to gain 10 or so pounds and increase his strength a bit, but he is going to be a good one.
|
|