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Post by robotpat on Oct 10, 2017 18:01:32 GMT -5
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Post by carawaydj on Oct 10, 2017 18:05:03 GMT -5
This thread will be fun.
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Post by pezz4pats on Oct 10, 2017 18:31:31 GMT -5
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Post by philskiw on Oct 10, 2017 18:41:52 GMT -5
So solder sucks, cannon is giving up sacks but mason is good. Nothing about the other guard or center. The dart hits at ........ 11. Yeah that's it 11th.
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Post by rkarp on Oct 11, 2017 8:33:15 GMT -5
I love to review PFF grades, but do not take them for the end all be all. What they do remind us of however, is that we tend to see an OL based on his mistakes. an OL man can give up two sacks, and play a great, clean balance of game, and we think he sucked because of the two sacks. PFF grades all.
I usually watch a replay of the game and focus on the OL and DL. I jot down notes on hurries, hits and sacks. not as scientific as PFF and I am probably not as consistent as PFF in how I score. However, by my little note taking, Cannon has been the PAts best OL this season, followed by Shaq. Thuney has not shown marked improvement over last season. Solder has regressed. Andrews by my unscientific note taking struggles mightily getting poshed back into TB's step up lane and in consistently opening up holes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 9:04:31 GMT -5
These 2 young Jet Safeties are good, be interested in game plan this week.
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Post by patslifer on Oct 11, 2017 9:45:11 GMT -5
These 2 young Jet Safeties are good, be interested in game plan this week. How are their corners? If their corners are average, you make the safeties play back to help out with Cooks and Dorsett. Use Gronk, Hogan Danny, others underneath and in the short/mid game. If they play 1 deep safety to help out on Cooks, and roll single coverage on Dorsett or Hogan, you exploit them there. I don't know much about the Jets CBs at this point and how they match up on us, etc.
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Post by jri37 on Oct 11, 2017 9:52:01 GMT -5
Here's the thing with PFF. When a DL stunts or Blitzes how do they know what the OL assignments are? During a run how do they know if an O lineman is responsible for getting to the 2nd level and the Dlineman closer to him is someone else responsibility?
Same goes for the secondary, unless a team is in press man coverage the entire game they have zero idea of what a certain defensive coverage is designed to do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 10:19:52 GMT -5
Here's the thing with PFF. When a DL stunts or Blitzes how do they know what the OL assignments are? During a run how do they know if an O lineman is responsible for getting to the 2nd level and the Dlineman closer to him is someone else responsibility? Same goes for the secondary, unless a team is in press man coverage the entire game they have zero idea of what a certain defensive coverage is designed to do. On the Brady FF sack play does PFF know if it was Brady or Cannons fault on that perfectly timed blitz?
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Post by jri37 on Oct 11, 2017 10:51:21 GMT -5
Here's the thing with PFF. When a DL stunts or Blitzes how do they know what the OL assignments are? During a run how do they know if an O lineman is responsible for getting to the 2nd level and the Dlineman closer to him is someone else responsibility? Same goes for the secondary, unless a team is in press man coverage the entire game they have zero idea of what a certain defensive coverage is designed to do. On the Brady FF sack play does PFF know if it was Brady or Cannons fault on that perfectly timed blitz? That's the issue... on a blitz does the Oline responsibilities change based on where the blitz is coming from? If the tackle is already engaged does the guard bounce behind the tackle and pick up the outside rusher? If The Oline has to make a choice and there isn't enough blockers to pick it up what is the QB's responsibility as far as just eating it and minimizing the yards lost or throwing it away? How does PFF grade an individual O-lineman when you have more rushers than blockers? I think PFF is fine if you can easily define an individual players responsibility. Based on schemes and certain play calls its just not that easy.
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Post by tanbass on Oct 11, 2017 11:43:54 GMT -5
Rank doesn't mean squat if Brady is getting killed. You can rank this line number 1 or number 32, but when Brady has been sacked as much as he has already, there is a problem. Rank them where ever you wish, but someone please show them how to protect the old man before he gets knocked out for the year....
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Post by Wozzy on Oct 11, 2017 11:47:01 GMT -5
How did other offensive lines who faced KC, Carolina and Houston fare? Poorly is the answer....
3rd ranked offense in the NFL... just saying. Time to feast on some weaker defenses.
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Post by lowfbiq on Oct 11, 2017 11:50:44 GMT -5
It's too simplistic, lazy , and easy to say the Oline sucks
Brady says football is fun because its like he has all the answers to the test.
Then why would that not also mean other teams/organizations and coordinators also have 18 years of accumulated knowledge in knowing the questions that give Brady, a Scar coached Oline, and the Pats offensive system the most difficulty?
That is not to say the offense can not still be successful(they continue to be) even if it's more difficult.
If teams make it more difficult then maybe Brady holds the ball longer to be sure of what he is seeing? Maybe he holds the ball longer because teams are forcing more throws outside the numbers and deeper?
Could Brady's long history of more often than not taking a while to click with new receivers also be causing him to hold the ball longer? Perhaps Josh McD is calling plays to account for some or all of those things, taking away what he likes best, prefers, or is most comfortable with?
Maybe the Pats(for defensive and or offensive reasons) simply have not even really had a game in total control with a commanding lead early enough to not have to throw so much. Perhaps they have been is such a predicament many times this season to allow the opposition to simply pin their ears back and not have to play with any discipline for fear of a run? We already know they do not have to account for Brady scrambling.
...but nope, lets not account for the possibility of any of that stuff. It's so much easier to be lazy and say the oline sucks.
the same five guys who won a superbowl earlier this year while setting an NFL record for pass block atts suddenly woke up with amnesia and forgot how to play football. Yeah that must be it.
Complimentary football, it is never just one thing.
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Post by olemiss on Oct 11, 2017 12:44:53 GMT -5
It that is so, how come we cannot run for a yard or two, in third and forth down situations repeatedly so far this season?
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Post by Wozzy on Oct 11, 2017 13:33:16 GMT -5
I also recently read Mike Gillislee faces more 8 man fronts than any other RB in the NFL not named Adrian Peterson.
We're too easy to predict with a one dimensional running back. Go to Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis, both are duel threats.
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Post by fletcherbrook on Oct 11, 2017 15:00:27 GMT -5
11th what? worst in the last 20 years?
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Post by robotpat on Oct 11, 2017 15:22:21 GMT -5
I also recently read Mike Gillislee faces more 8 man fronts than any other RB in the NFL not named Adrian Peterson. We're too easy to predict with a one dimensional running back. Go to Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis, both are duel threats. That's what Rusty used to sayđ
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Post by carawaydj on Oct 12, 2017 12:38:07 GMT -5
Related to the OL, specifically the run blocking, this article on Pats Pulpit now provides some interesting insight. It's a nice read. In a nutshell, we shouldn't be so quick to fault the OL. www.patspulpit.com/2017/10/12/16462624/a-bit-of-intriguing-data-concerning-the-patriots-rushing-attackAfter an offseason that saw Bill Belichick dedicate a considerable amount of resources to accumulating a talented, deep stable of multifaceted running backs, the Patriotsâ rushing attack has been fairly pedestrian through five weeks. They rank 18th in football at 99 yards per game, and footballoutsiders.com has them ranked 10th in non-adjusted DVOA rushing offense. And it appears that predictable play calling could be to blame for this somewhat stagnant rushing attack â specifically when Mike Gillislee is on the field. The Patriots have run back-to-back run plays 32 times so far in 2017. Run one: 175 yards (5.47 per carry). Run Two: 83 yards (2.59 per carry). Theyâve run it three consecutive times on six occasions. Run one: 53 yards (8.8 per carry). Run two: 36 yards (6 yards per carry). Run three: 10 yards (1.7 per carry). While 21 of these 32 âcarry-clustersâ predictably came on 1st down, itâs not the down and distance, nor the actual number of consecutive carries that is unusual. What is unusual is the sharp decline in production from touch-to-touch. Itâs starting to become easier to see why. Mike Gillislee got the ball on 54 of these 70 total carries (77%), and 45 of them have come in âpowerâ personnel packages that include James Develin as a lead back, two-tight ends, or an extra offensive lineman. Why does that matter? Because teams know whatâs coming when the former Buffalo Bill is in the backfield. So far in 2017, Gillislee has been given the ball in 66% of all snaps in which he is on the field in one of these power packages, regardless of the previous play call. That has accounted for 81% of his total carries. On those touches, heâs averaging just 3.36 yards per carry. However, this year, when Gillislee is toting the rock out of âpassing packagesâ like 11-personnel, where the predictability of the play calling is theoretically lessened given the presence of a third wide receiver, and where defenses typically sub into nickel or dime groupings, he averages 4.15 yards per carry. Itâs clear he and the offense could benefit from an increase in his 48% snap vs. touch clip in these power packages. Whether or not this predictability speaks to a lack trust with the offensive line, or simply not wanting to put too many dynamic personnel package designs on film this early in the season remains to be seen. But these numbers do suggest that what we have seen so far in 2017 has been pretty vanilla â especially considering the reputations Bill Belichick and Josh McDaniels have developed as creative offensive innovators. It could also indicate that theyâve only scratched the surface.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 12:56:50 GMT -5
Anybody ever think that Gilislee might be able to catch a Pass? How about a play for him out of the Backfield. Didn't do it with Blount either. Every player has to have versatility, only way to get that you have to have plays for them. Doesn't work because of Players weakness is one thing, but if you never try it, how the hell will you know.
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Post by Wozzy on Oct 12, 2017 16:32:53 GMT -5
Anybody ever think that Gilislee might be able to catch a Pass? How about a play for him out of the Backfield. Didn't do it with Blount either. Every player has to have versatility, only way to get that you have to have plays for them. Doesn't work because of Players weakness is one thing, but if you never try it, how the hell will you know. He has shown an inability to catch over the shoulder like a receiver, besides size and measurables why I compare him to Law Firm.
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Post by mthurl on Oct 12, 2017 17:08:39 GMT -5
I also recently read Mike Gillislee faces more 8 man fronts than any other RB in the NFL not named Adrian Peterson. We're too easy to predict with a one dimensional running back. Go to Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis, both are duel threats. I was just thinking this the other day, how predictable they are. Everthime Gillislee comes in I know it's a run, and if that run is successful? They'll hand it off to himmagain and he'll get stuffed. Why not leave him in there for some plays strung together? You telling me the guy can't block or heaven forbid go out for a three yard swing pass after a block? And if Lewis comes in they know it's a run too. With White they know it's a pass, or if it's a run it's no big deal. But honestly it's been this way for almost the entire time Belichick has been here, we haven't had an every down back since Curtis Martin left, lol.
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Post by Wozzy on Oct 12, 2017 18:29:51 GMT -5
I also recently read Mike Gillislee faces more 8 man fronts than any other RB in the NFL not named Adrian Peterson. We're too easy to predict with a one dimensional running back. Go to Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis, both are duel threats. I was just thinking this the other day, how predictable they are. Everthime Gillislee comes in I know it's a run, and if that run is successful? They'll hand it off to himmagain and he'll get stuffed. Why not leave him in there for some plays strung together? You telling me the guy can't block or heaven forbid go out for a three yard swing pass after a block? And if Lewis comes in they know it's a run too. With White they know it's a pass, or if it's a run it's no big deal. But honestly it's been this way for almost the entire time Belichick has been here, we haven't had an every down back since Curtis Martin left, lol. It has always been this way (early down grinder/agile 3rd down back) with Belichick RB's but everyone including Belichick has recognized the league has changed. It is a pass first 2nd and 3rd league, he stated in the offseason the desire for duel threat RB... IMO Burkhead is the closest thing to a combination of the two.
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Post by carawaydj on Oct 13, 2017 6:16:13 GMT -5
I like some of the pieces Rich Hill at Pats Pulpit has penned lately. Here is another interesting take on the OL: www.patspulpit.com/2017/10/13/16464494/new-england-patriots-tom-brady-has-been-sacked-the-league-average-amount-and-thats-not-goodQuarterback Tom Brady has been sacked 16 times this year, exceeding the 15 sacks he took in 12 regular season games in 2016. Iâm sure youâve heard that stat by now. Itâs the fault of the offensive line, they say. Tom Brady isnât feeling the pressure, others say. Itâs the result of a more vertical offense, some say.
How about a simple answer: Itâs all of the above.I spoke with Pro Football Focusâ Zoltan Buday to get some breakdowns on how the Patriots offense has changed from 2016 to 2017 and he gave some great insight. Hereâs how Bradyâs changed the depth of his drops from year to year. Pro Football Focus Note: the columns donât add up to 100% because of alternative dropbacks. We can see that Brady increased his number of 7-step drops by 35% and decreased his shorter 3-step drops by more than 26%. This aligns with how Bradyâs been throwing deep more often this year. And when quarterbacks take deeper dropbacks, theyâre more susceptible to sacks. According to Buday, quarterbacks that take 3-step drops are sacked on 2.9% of plays, while those that take 5- and 7-step drops are sacked on 8.3% and 9.4% of plays, respectively. Based on these figures, we can project that Brady is expected to be sacked 16.7 times through five games in 2017, which is exactly in line with the 16 sacks that he has taken. So the protection hasnât been terrible- itâs just been âaverage,â which represents a decline from our expectations. Using the same math, we can also project that a league-average offense would have been sacked 33 times based on Bradyâs 2016 dropbacks. Brady was sacked just 15 times, though, which means that he was twice-as-able to avoid sacks last year than league average. And so thatâs why the 2017 protection seems like a problem. Brady has historically been very good at avoiding sacks and hits and while the more-vertical offense exposes him to more opportunities to be hit, Brady still shouldnât be taking the league-average number of sacks. The offensive line needs to protect better. Brady needs to feel pressure better. The receivers need to get open on time. Thereâs room for everyone to improve.
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Post by philskiw on Oct 13, 2017 6:26:06 GMT -5
Boy. You can write what ever you want but when you see a guy run around solder or cannon that's a sign of a bad OL. I'd never thought there were 2 people named Zoltan
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Post by carawaydj on Oct 13, 2017 7:03:55 GMT -5
Boy. You can write what ever you want but when you see a guy run around solder or cannon that's a sign of a bad OL. I'd never thought there were 2 people named Zoltan Regarding Solder it is probably fair to assume he is playing through injury. He missed all of camp and preseason. He has missed some practices. For players it's a bit of "damned if you do and damned if you don't". When they don't play through injury we criticize them. If they play through injury and don't play like they are healthy we criticize them. Not saying Solder is a great LT, but he isn't THIS bad.
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