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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 17:31:52 GMT -5
So you want me to tell you I think their opinion is shit? Is that all? I find your counterpoints, how shall I say this - less than compelling. It would appear, and I don’t wish to judge here, that you got rather defensive when presented with a view that differed from your clear, expansive analysis. Well when you say how about this point of view? If I think its bullshit, I don’t want to respond rudely. There was absolutely no bristling. Just an effort at tactffullness.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 16, 2024 17:39:51 GMT -5
Here's what people haven't given enough thought to. Penix opponents knew he was the key to Washington's success and only Michigan was able to slow him down. His offense didn't offer a serious rushing threat. So despite preparing game in and game out to stop the passing attack, nobody but Michigan found success. UW’s running back was a stud and their O-Line was a great run blocking unit. Go back and watch their games. They had a great rushing attack. That’s what bailed them out against the Cougs when Penix was struggling. UW finished 9th in the PAC-12 on rush yds per game. They were not great even in just the PAC-12. Their RB1 - Dillon Johnson - ran for 5.1 yds per carry. He was not even top 10 in the Pac-12. He attempted a lot of runs, but they were not even close to being great. Interestingly, WA ST'sdefensive pass yds per game ranked higher than their defensive rush yds per game. So maybe it was more about WA ST than it was about Penix. Also, if you are having a decent ground game is really a reason for not liking Penix, then you should be completely out of the JJM bandwagon all together, shouldn't you? But you're not. Looks like you are applying assymetric standards.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 17:40:32 GMT -5
If passing was like golf, where putting is a totally different stroke than teeing off, there would be something there. But passing the football is the same motion just like shooting a basketball is the same technique no matter the distance. It is like saying a great driver of the ball is also a great iron player - irons take finesse, driving takes timing - a driver is aiming for a 20-50 yard opening and a good drive is good whether is is 300 yds or 320 yds or 350 yds, while that range on a iron goes from great to in the water. A short pass requires touch and control of speed especial on swing passes, and is not the same as airing it out long. Longer passes allow receivers to adjust while the ball is in the air and can look 'perfect' because a receiver has adjusted to it. A swing pass is actual one of the most difficult throws for an QB as the receiver is usually moving dramatically in relation to the QB - the margin of error is much smaller and the reaction time of the receiver much smaller. Think of a fielder on baseball - infield players can cover much less ground than outfielders because they have less time to react to the ball from home plate. I know what your saying, but golf is NOT a good analogy for football throwing in my opinion. It is largely the EXACT same motion at different levels of power.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 17:45:56 GMT -5
I find your counterpoints, how shall I say this - less than compelling. It would appear, and I don’t wish to judge here, that you got rather defensive when presented with a view that differed from your clear, expansive analysis. Well when you say how about this point of view? If I think its bullshit, I don’t want to respond rudely. There was absolutely no bristling. Just an effort at tactffullness. Interesting. Instead of offering counterpoints you call the scouts' opinion 'shit' but you weren't bristling. Also interesting.
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Post by rkarp on Apr 16, 2024 17:46:40 GMT -5
Penix had a better group of WR's last season than Mac Jones did last season
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 17:49:01 GMT -5
Well when you say how about this point of view? If I think its bullshit, I don’t want to respond rudely. There was absolutely no bristling. Just an effort at tactffullness. Interesting. Instead of offering counterpoints you call the scouts' opinion 'shit' but you weren't bristling. Also interesting. What else is there to say? He struggles with passes that aren't deep balls. How do I prove that is not what I saw? There is no seperate stat on that to point to. It is the HEIGHT of subjectivity. You are coming off like their opinion is better than mine because they work for an NFL website. I obviously don't subscribe to that.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 17:51:46 GMT -5
I’m not just ‘ getting on’ the draft discussion . Simply because i haven’t posted before now doesn’t mean that I don’t read. Beyond that, I haven’t taken any position on Penix. Ive simply offered perspectives of NFL scouts that seemed to differ from those who were proponents of his. I’ve no ax to grind here. I just find it interesting how others seemed to bristle at the mere suggestion that Penix wasn’t the second coming of Brady. I did not think you had an ax to grind. I mean, how could I if I thought you were just getting engaged on the draft discussions? And who's suggesting that Penix is the second coming of TB? I was of course exaggerating as is often the case with posters on here to either make a point or to counter another. There has been, shall we say, a good deal of drum beating on behalf of a player about whom the reviews are quite widely mixed. I'm not saying that Penix is not a good prospect. I was merely offering a different perspective from a credible source - that is of course if you consider the consensus opinion of several NFL scouts.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 17:53:40 GMT -5
Interesting. Instead of offering counterpoints you call the scouts' opinion 'shit' but you weren't bristling. Also interesting. What else is there to say? He struggles with passes that aren't deep balls. How do I prove that is not what I saw?
There is no seperate stat on that to point to. It is the HEIGHT of subjectivity. No one (at least not me) is suggesting that you need to 'prove' anything. But merely calling a perspective that differs from yours 'shit' is not what many would call a 'counterpoint.'
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 17:55:11 GMT -5
What else is there to say? He struggles with passes that aren't deep balls. How do I prove that is not what I saw?
There is no seperate stat on that to point to. It is the HEIGHT of subjectivity. No one (at least not me) is suggesting that you need to 'prove' anything. But merely calling a perspective that differs from yours 'shit' is not what many would call a 'counterpoint.' Yes it is and no it isn't is actually a counterpoint. Lol Some opinions are shit. Not afraid to say that.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:00:46 GMT -5
What else is there to say? He struggles with passes that aren't deep balls. How do I prove that is not what I saw?
There is no seperate stat on that to point to. It is the HEIGHT of subjectivity. No one (at least not me) is suggesting that you need to 'prove' anything. But merely calling a perspective that differs from yours 'shit' is not what many would call a 'counterpoint.' If someone comes to you and says the sky is polka dot. How much time would you waste trying to prove to them it isn't? That is my attitude about scouting reports I believe are erroneous.
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Post by wazzu on Apr 16, 2024 18:11:49 GMT -5
UW’s running back was a stud and their O-Line was a great run blocking unit. Go back and watch their games. They had a great rushing attack. That’s what bailed them out against the Cougs when Penix was struggling. UW finished 9th in the PAC-12 on rush yds per game. They were not great even in just the PAC-12. Their RB1 - Dillon Johnson - ran for 5.1 yds per carry. He was not even top 10 in the Pac-12. He attempted a lot of runs, but they were not even close to being great. Interestingly, WA ST'sdefensive pass yds per game ranked higher than their defensive rush yds per game. So maybe it was more about WA ST than it was about Penix. Also, if you are having a decent ground game is really a reason for not liking Penix, then you should be completely out of the JJM bandwagon all together, shouldn't you? But you're not. Looks like you are applying assymetric standards. I already explained to you yesterday the reservations I have about Penix as a pro. I feel like you’re taking offense to the fact that I don’t think he’s worthy of a high selection.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 18:14:08 GMT -5
No one (at least not me) is suggesting that you need to 'prove' anything. But merely calling a perspective that differs from yours 'shit' is not what many would call a 'counterpoint.' If someone comes to you and says the sky is polka dot. How much time would you waste trying to prove to them it isn't? That is my attitude about scouting reports I believe are erroneous. Merely erroneous? Calling them 'shit' would seem to indicate that you view them as an RCH more than erroneous. But only you know how you feel. And not to belabor the point, the following are the first two 'weaknesses' listed in the NFL scouts' prospect profile: *Suffered multiple season-ending injuries during his time at Indiana, including tearing his right ACL twice. *Posted 20 TDs and 9 INTs over his final 11 games of the 2023 season. Are they shit? Seem to be statements of fact to me.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 18:16:43 GMT -5
No one (at least not me) is suggesting that you need to 'prove' anything. But merely calling a perspective that differs from yours 'shit' is not what many would call a 'counterpoint.' If someone comes to you and says the sky is polka dot. How much time would you waste trying to prove to them it isn't? That is my attitude about scouting reports I believe are erroneous. OK so the perspective of NFL scouts who are paid to evaluate talent, as opposed to that of media pundits and has been QBs, are nothing more than nonsense. OK.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 16, 2024 18:22:22 GMT -5
UW finished 9th in the PAC-12 on rush yds per game. They were not great even in just the PAC-12. Their RB1 - Dillon Johnson - ran for 5.1 yds per carry. He was not even top 10 in the Pac-12. He attempted a lot of runs, but they were not even close to being great. Interestingly, WA ST'sdefensive pass yds per game ranked higher than their defensive rush yds per game. So maybe it was more about WA ST than it was about Penix. Also, if you are having a decent ground game is really a reason for not liking Penix, then you should be completely out of the JJM bandwagon all together, shouldn't you? But you're not. Looks like you are applying assymetric standards. I already explained to you yesterday the reservations I have about Penix as a pro. I feel like you’re taking offense to the fact that I don’t think he’s worthy of a high selection. I did not take offense. I give you the injury thing. But you brought up that WA had a great ground attack. First, it was not true. I was just pointing it out. Secondly, as I said, if you are going to use a standard to be critical on one prospect, why wouldn't you be applying it across all prospects? I just pointed that out too.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:22:54 GMT -5
If someone comes to you and says the sky is polka dot. How much time would you waste trying to prove to them it isn't? That is my attitude about scouting reports I believe are erroneous. Merely erroneous? Calling them 'shit' would seem to indicate that you view them as an RCH more than erroneous. But only you know how you feel. And not to belabor the point, the following are the first two 'weaknesses' listed in the NFL scouts' prospect profile: *Suffered multiple season-ending injuries during his time at Indiana, including tearing his right ACL twice. *Posted 20 TDs and 9 INTs over his final 11 games of the 2023 season. Are they shit? Seem to be statements of fact to me. Correct. Those were not the opinion parts of the scouting report. I don't disagree with facts. What happens to be YOUR opinion of the scouting report?
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:25:59 GMT -5
If someone comes to you and says the sky is polka dot. How much time would you waste trying to prove to them it isn't? That is my attitude about scouting reports I believe are erroneous. OK so the perspective of NFL scouts who are paid to evaluate talent, as opposed to that of media pundits and has been QBs, are nothing more than nonsense. OK. Name the scouts, give their resume. The stamp NFL is not enough credibility for me. If it is for you, that's fine
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Post by wazzu on Apr 16, 2024 18:28:11 GMT -5
I already explained to you yesterday the reservations I have about Penix as a pro. I feel like you’re taking offense to the fact that I don’t think he’s worthy of a high selection. I did not take offense. I give you the injury thing. But you brought up that WA had a great ground attack. First, it was not true. I was just pointing it out. Secondly, as I said, if you are going to use a standard to be critical on one prospect, why wouldn't you be applying it across all prospects? I just pointed that out too. I thought watching Dillon Johnson that he was a very good RB. In fact, he’s a guy I’d love to see NE draft in the later rounds.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:29:23 GMT -5
I did not take offense. I give you the injury thing. But you brought up that WA had a great ground attack. First, it was not true. I was just pointing it out. Secondly, as I said, if you are going to use a standard to be critical on one prospect, why wouldn't you be applying it across all prospects? I just pointed that out too. I thought watching Dillon Johnson that he was a very good RB. In fact, he’s a guy I’d love to see NE draft in the later rounds. How can a great RB be available in the later rounds? Isn't that a contradiction? Bijan Robinson was a high 1st rounder.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 18:33:25 GMT -5
Merely erroneous? Calling them 'shit' would seem to indicate that you view them as an RCH more than erroneous. But only you know how you feel. And not to belabor the point, the following are the first two 'weaknesses' listed in the NFL scouts' prospect profile: *Suffered multiple season-ending injuries during his time at Indiana, including tearing his right ACL twice. *Posted 20 TDs and 9 INTs over his final 11 games of the 2023 season. Are they shit? Seem to be statements of fact to me. Correct. Those were not the opinion parts of the scouting report. I don't disagree with facts. What happens to be YOUR opinion of the scouting report? I take them as I take any 'expert' opinion with perhaps a touch more credibility. Oh, and I've never seen a perfect score on any of those. And If you want to know my opinion of Penix, the only thing that gives me pause is the injury history and hat would be my only concern if the Pats picked him.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 18:34:06 GMT -5
OK so the perspective of NFL scouts who are paid to evaluate talent, as opposed to that of media pundits and has been QBs, are nothing more than nonsense. OK. Name the scouts, give their resume. The stamp NFL is not enough credibility for me. If it is for you, that's fine OK
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:35:00 GMT -5
Correct. Those were not the opinion parts of the scouting report. I don't disagree with facts. What happens to be YOUR opinion of the scouting report? I take them as I take any 'expert' opinion with perhaps a touch more credibility. Oh, and I've never seen a perfect score on any of those. And If you want to know my opinion of Penix, the only thing that gives me pause is the injury history and hat would be my only concern if the Pats picked him. Thank you. It seemed like you were taking up a devil's advocate position for the sport of it. Which is ok. Lol
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 16, 2024 18:39:28 GMT -5
Correct. Those were not the opinion parts of the scouting report. I don't disagree with facts. What happens to be YOUR opinion of the scouting report? I take them as I take any 'expert' opinion with perhaps a touch more credibility. Oh, and I've never seen a perfect score on any of those. And If you want to know my opinion of Penix, the only thing that gives me pause is the injury history and hat would be my only concern if the Pats picked him. Let me paint a picture of how our season will be as fans if they picked Penix. Everytime he goes down to the ground, we would all be holding our breath, some perhaps gnawing at their nails, to see if he can get up and continue to play. The moment we know for sure he's okay, we'd all be jumping for joy. So throughout the season, you should get your heart meds ready by your side. By end of season, we'll all be needing meds for bi-polar syndrome.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 16, 2024 18:40:54 GMT -5
I take them as I take any 'expert' opinion with perhaps a touch more credibility. Oh, and I've never seen a perfect score on any of those. And If you want to know my opinion of Penix, the only thing that gives me pause is the injury history and hat would be my only concern if the Pats picked him. Thank you. It seemed like you were taking up a devil's advocate position for the sport of it. Which is ok. Lol I don't play that game brother - ever. I was seriously looking for your take on them because it's clear you're a Penix fan. They provided alternative views which I think often stimulate discussion. Any QB in the draft can be a winner (I give you our favorite 6th rounder) or a massive bust (I give you Ryan Leaf). Scouting reports can only give you so much.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:44:25 GMT -5
I take them as I take any 'expert' opinion with perhaps a touch more credibility. Oh, and I've never seen a perfect score on any of those. And If you want to know my opinion of Penix, the only thing that gives me pause is the injury history and hat would be my only concern if the Pats picked him. Let me paint a picture of how our season will be as fans if they picked Penix. Everytime he goes down to the ground, we would all be holding our breath, some perhaps gnawing at their nails, to see if he can get up and continue to play. The moment we know for sure he's okay, we'd all be jumping for joy. So throughout the season, you should get your heart meds ready by your side. By end of season, we'll all be needing meds for bi-polar syndrome. Lol lol
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 16, 2024 18:49:09 GMT -5
I'm a little late to the party in the Penix discussion but i would be interested in the Penix proponents proselytizing on the below listed 'weaknesses' copied from his NFL Prospect Profile: Weaknesses Suffered multiple season-ending injuries during his time at Indiana, including tearing his right ACL twice. Posted 20 TDs and 9 INTs over his final 11 games of the 2023 season. Forces receivers to break stride on a variety of throws. (I did not see this as a problem) Throws with wide-open front side when feet fail to follow his eyes. (Obviously not a problem, He carried thecteam on his arm, everyone knows this.) Heavily reliant upon receiving talent winning jump balls. ( He put the ball in there hands in stride, no jumping or battling for the ball observed in any highlights) Production/consistency plummet when forced to throw outside the pocket. ( Not much evidence of this on video) youtu.be/Qo9o0u_Q9k4?si=r4oskbcyYusyo17yJudge for yourself The Indiana portion shows you how good he is with bad protection
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