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Post by Wozzy on Mar 23, 2023 8:26:18 GMT -5
DMac was good no doubt, but as free safety imo he sucked..he was last line of defense and way too many deep balls completed and he wa# no where to be found. Oh I understand the difficulty of the position but if you can’t do the job, upgrades are needed. It was my opinion and I stand by them Okay…. I can’t argue with someone divorced from reality. |
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Post by rkarp on Mar 23, 2023 8:35:36 GMT -5
re DMC. I think it also has to be taken into account, that prior to last year, the Pats base D was pretty much single high S. DMC was playing S alone, opposed to cover 2 utilizing 2 S's on the back line. If it appeared DMC was "late", more than likely he was responsible for another zone of the defense.
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Post by Wozzy on Mar 23, 2023 8:55:41 GMT -5
Here is the Patriots franchise page on PFR, it list team ranks for points scored and allowed going back to the beginning. www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/With the lone exception of 2020, the Patriot’s defense has been top ten in fewest points allowed going back to 2005. Outside of 2020 there were only 2 seasons where they were outside the top ten in fewest yards allowed. Perspective is always a good thing. |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Mar 23, 2023 9:22:52 GMT -5
If DMC and Jon Jones both suck, what does that say about BB? I mean, DMC played the most snaps on the entire defense last year, and Jon Jones would've played the 2nd most, had he not missed week 17.
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Post by fisher on Mar 23, 2023 9:31:32 GMT -5
If DMC and Jon Jones both suck, what does that say about BB? I mean, DMC played the most snaps on the entire defense last year, and Jon Jones would've played the 2nd most, had he not missed week 17. Availability is indeed a positive for them. Didn’t say Jones sucked, meant to say he overmatched too much.he is a nice piece when needing reserves.. my gripe with DMac over the last couple of years has been, I believe , he has no ball awareness or where the play is going. I know it’s blasphemy to have a different view on some patriots players but it is what it is, I want upgrades in certain areas and I feel that db is an area.. No war needed to be started… |
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Post by rkarp on Mar 23, 2023 9:37:34 GMT -5
If DMC and Jon Jones both suck, what does that say about BB? I mean, DMC played the most snaps on the entire defense last year, and Jon Jones would've played the 2nd most, had he not missed week 17. Availability is indeed a positive for them. Didn’t say Jones sucked, meant to say he overmatched too much.he is a nice piece when needing reserves.. my gripe with DMac over the last couple of years has been, I believe , he has no ball awareness or where the play is going. I know it’s blasphemy to have a different view on some patriots players but it is what it is, I want upgrades in certain areas and I feel that db is an area.. No war needed to be started… no war. friendly discussion about football/Pats all opinions and comments welcome even mine (sometimes) |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Mar 23, 2023 9:48:00 GMT -5
If DMC and Jon Jones both suck, what does that say about BB? I mean, DMC played the most snaps on the entire defense last year, and Jon Jones would've played the 2nd most, had he not missed week 17. Availability is indeed a positive for them. Didn’t say Jones sucked, meant to say he overmatched too much.he is a nice piece when needing reserves.. my gripe with DMac over the last couple of years has been, I believe , he has no ball awareness or where the play is going. I know it’s blasphemy to have a different view on some patriots players but it is what it is, I want upgrades in certain areas and I feel that db is an area.. No war needed to be started… Well, when you say that two of their best DB's suck and/or can't cover receivers, you can probably expect some blow back. That doesn't mean that opposing viewpoints aren't welcome. |
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Post by belestrator on Mar 23, 2023 11:14:59 GMT -5
Availability is indeed a positive for them. Didn’t say Jones sucked, meant to say he overmatched too much.he is a nice piece when needing reserves.. my gripe with DMac over the last couple of years has been, I believe , he has no ball awareness or where the play is going. I know it’s blasphemy to have a different view on some patriots players but it is what it is, I want upgrades in certain areas and I feel that db is an area.. No war needed to be started… Well, when you say that two of their best DB's suck and/or can't cover receivers, you can probably expect some blow back. That doesn't mean that opposing viewpoints aren't welcome. I too thought DMC lost a step over the past two years, as well as missed some tackles. I previously felt that he was an extremely reliable tackler, especially in the open field. On the other hand, my wife thinks that DMC is hot, so his level of play should be of a lesser concern.  Was always a fan of Jon Jones, including last year. Glad he is returning. I feel that Mills is an average cover corner, who played hard, was physical, was a sure tackler and played the run well. Think he will be an important member of the defense, but hopefully not as an outside starting corner. |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Mar 23, 2023 11:19:45 GMT -5
Well, when you say that two of their best DB's suck and/or can't cover receivers, you can probably expect some blow back. That doesn't mean that opposing viewpoints aren't welcome. I too thought DMC lost a step over the past two years, as well as missed some tackles. I previously felt that he was an extremely reliable tackler, especially in the open field. On the other hand, my wife thinks that DMC is hot, so his level of play should be of a lesser concern. Was always a fan of Jon Jones, including last year. Glad he is returning. I feel that Mills is an average cover corner, who played hard, was physical, was a sure tackler and played the run well. Think he will be an important member of the defense, but hopefully not as an outside starting corner. So it would come down to, lost a step from what? Has he gone from pro bowl level player to above average player? Point being, he doesn't suck, and is still trusted enough to play almost 100% of the snaps. Agree on Jon Jones, tough, solid player that excels vs. the the Tyreek's of the world. I also think Mills is solid, yet unspectacular, and I like the energy and swagger that he plays with. |
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Post by belestrator on Mar 23, 2023 11:25:27 GMT -5
I too thought DMC lost a step over the past two years, as well as missed some tackles. I previously felt that he was an extremely reliable tackler, especially in the open field. On the other hand, my wife thinks that DMC is hot, so his level of play should be of a lesser concern. Was always a fan of Jon Jones, including last year. Glad he is returning. I feel that Mills is an average cover corner, who played hard, was physical, was a sure tackler and played the run well. Think he will be an important member of the defense, but hopefully not as an outside starting corner. So it would come down to, lost a step from what? Has he gone from pro bowl level player to above average player? Point being, he doesn't suck, and is still trusted enough to play almost 100% of the snaps. Agree on Jon Jones, tough, solid player that excels vs. the the Tyreek's of the world. I also think Mills is solid, yet unspectacular, and I like the energy and swagger that he plays with. Yes, I think DMC regressed from pro bowl level to above average in his overall game. Thanks. Agree with you completely regarding J. Jones and Mills. |
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Post by philskiw on Mar 23, 2023 11:48:35 GMT -5
DMC sucked as a CB. He was moved to safety after his second year disaster at CB.
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Post by salcon on Mar 23, 2023 11:52:06 GMT -5
DMC sucked as a CB. He was moved to safety after his second year disaster at CB. Oddly enough, DMC's rookie season at CB was pretty good. |
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Post by muzwell on Mar 23, 2023 12:02:15 GMT -5
DMC sucked as a CB. He was moved to safety after his second year disaster at CB. It's interesting because his rookie year he was Second Team All-Pro (Pro Bowl, All Rookie Team as well) as a corner. Then he was moved halfway through the next year because he was struggling but also because they lost two starting safeties. So, who knows he may have rebounded eventually but he played too well at safety to ever think about moving him back. |
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Post by squishthefish on Mar 23, 2023 12:03:28 GMT -5
DMC sucked as a CB. He was moved to safety after his second year disaster at CB. I still think we saw Jason and not Devin in year 2.. Reasons: 1) Jason was a late round pick coming out of college the year before Devin, while Devin was the more complete player who was ready year 1. Entering his third year with the titans, Jason was looking like a likely camp cut, while Devin was a pro bowler and all pro his rookie year. 2) All of a sudden in year 3, Jason played lights out and earned a huge contract extension in camp the following year while Devin stunk up the joint compared in his second year and was moved to safety his third year. 3) This improvement gave Jason the contractual and roster stability needed to continue to develop and in my theory Devin then swapped back in year 3 so Devin couldn’t lose his spot if Jason had another bad year. 4) Their drop off/improvement in play and the fact their own mom has difficulty and sometimes can’t tell them apart makes this plausible. |
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Post by ucmiami on Mar 23, 2023 12:14:50 GMT -5
The defensive back 7 are a team, and the responsibilities and the schemes change dramatically as the personnel changes. With Gilmore available to shut down one side/receiver, the other 6 have very different responsibilities. With JC Moving into that role (with less skill) the other six had to adapt, and with Jones and Mills being deployed, it changed again and again when injures started hitting and rookies were being deployed.
DMC held it all together as the personnel objectively got worse each year. Chung and DMC were a long standing team, Chung retired and it was DMC alone with the institutional knowledge. The #1/#2/Slot combination has deteriorated over the last three years so it is hard to say if age was indeed catching up with DMC, or that the types of defenses played were not his greatest strengths, or if he was having to cover too much for the loss of talent in front of him.
What can be said, is that the Patriots defense continued to play well as a total unit and that the defensive backfield didn't embarrass itself. The DBs outside of DMC really are a cobbled together group and I suspect near the bottom in terms of average yearly starting cap hit on contracts in the league.
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Post by carawaydj on Mar 23, 2023 13:21:10 GMT -5
So it would come down to, lost a step from what? Has he gone from pro bowl level player to above average player? Point being, he doesn't suck, and is still trusted enough to play almost 100% of the snaps. Agree on Jon Jones, tough, solid player that excels vs. the the Tyreek's of the world. I also think Mills is solid, yet unspectacular, and I like the energy and swagger that he plays with. Yes, I think DMC regressed from pro bowl level to above average in his overall game. Thanks. Agree with you completely regarding J. Jones and Mills. I think DMC himself told us how he thinks he was playing with his retirement. If he was still balling it he'd probably be playing another season. His own eyes must have seen enough of a dropoff (knowing further decline will occur next season) that he decided to hang em up. IMHO, last season he was mentally above average but physically average. We'll miss him. I never felt like he got the appreciation he deserved. |
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Post by ucmiami on Mar 23, 2023 13:47:20 GMT -5
Yes, I think DMC regressed from pro bowl level to above average in his overall game. Thanks. Agree with you completely regarding J. Jones and Mills. I think DMC himself told us how he thinks he was playing with his retirement. If he was still balling it he'd probably be playing another season. His own eyes must have seen enough of a dropoff (knowing further decline will occur next season) that he decided to hang em up. IMHO, last season he was mentally above average but physically average. We'll miss him. I never felt like he got the appreciation he deserved. Retirement isn't just about skills - it is a whole life decision and with a family oriented player, the travel and missing family events is a very real negative to playing. Not to mention the accumulation of hits long term as well. I suspect he has done well with his money earned, so the lure of another big paycheck isn't that big a deal. |
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Post by carawaydj on Mar 23, 2023 14:30:40 GMT -5
I think DMC himself told us how he thinks he was playing with his retirement. If he was still balling it he'd probably be playing another season. His own eyes must have seen enough of a dropoff (knowing further decline will occur next season) that he decided to hang em up. IMHO, last season he was mentally above average but physically average. We'll miss him. I never felt like he got the appreciation he deserved. Retirement isn't just about skills - it is a whole life decision and with a family oriented player, the travel and missing family events is a very real negative to playing. Not to mention the accumulation of hits long term as well. I suspect he has done well with his money earned, so the lure of another big paycheck isn't that big a deal. That's a fair point, and a valid one. Nonetheless, I'd put my money on physical skills being a major role in this case. Why? Because we could see he's lost a step. How many of us here thought last season could be it for him? A lot of us. It wasn't because he sat down with any of us to discuss his family, life, etc. |
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Post by fisher on Mar 23, 2023 16:03:07 GMT -5
Availability is indeed a positive for them. Didn’t say Jones sucked, meant to say he overmatched too much.he is a nice piece when needing reserves.. my gripe with DMac over the last couple of years has been, I believe , he has no ball awareness or where the play is going. I know it’s blasphemy to have a different view on some patriots players but it is what it is, I want upgrades in certain areas and I feel that db is an area.. No war needed to be started… Well, when you say that two of their best DB's suck and/or can't cover receivers, you can probably expect some blow back. That doesn't mean that opposing viewpoints aren't welcome. Nor to continue reethis too much but if you look at the CB’s and safeties for other teams , let’s say 64 DB’s and 32 free safeties , are the players we are talking about in the top half? |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Mar 23, 2023 16:19:38 GMT -5
Well, when you say that two of their best DB's suck and/or can't cover receivers, you can probably expect some blow back. That doesn't mean that opposing viewpoints aren't welcome. Nor to continue reethis too much but if you look at the CB’s and safeties for other teams , let’s say 64 DB’s and 32 free safeties , are the players we are talking about in the top half? Your position is that DMC sucks, and Jon Jones can't cover receivers. I disagree on both counts. I also haven't watched all the other DB's in the NFL in a regular basis, so I am unqualified to tell you where they slot in. I do think Jon Jones is a very good slot/nickel, and DMC was been solid and reliable for a long time... and his snap counts would support that. |
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Post by rkarp on Mar 23, 2023 16:29:37 GMT -5
DMC- All Pro Teams
Year Tm Level Pos Voters
2010 2nd Tm CB Associated Press
2010 1st Tm CB Sporting News
2012 2nd Tm FS Pro Football Focus
2013 2nd Tm S Associated Press
2013 1st Tm FS Pro Football Focus
2014 1st Tm All-Conf. S Pro Football Writers
2016 1st Tm All-Conf. S Pro Football Writers
2016 2nd Tm S Associated Press
2016 2nd Tm S Pro Football Focu
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Post by philskiw on Mar 23, 2023 17:45:46 GMT -5
DMC sucked as a CB. He was moved to safety after his second year disaster at CB. It's interesting because his rookie year he was Second Team All-Pro (Pro Bowl, All Rookie Team as well) as a corner. Then he was moved halfway through the next year because he was struggling but also because they lost two starting safeties. So, who knows he may have rebounded eventually but he played too well at safety to ever think about moving him back. no I didn’t type it right I agree his rookie season was stellar. He had like 10 ints? But the second year he blew chunks. Why would you take a good CB and move him to safety? Even for injury. Would we ever have moved Gilmore to safety? It appeared to me and others, that they couldn’t continuously play him at CB anymore. He was moved to safety on a sink or swim deal. It worked out but he wasn’t drafted or old enough to move to safety. |
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Post by fisher on Mar 25, 2023 5:28:59 GMT -5
Nor to continue reethis too much but if you look at the CB’s and safeties for other teams , let’s say 64 DB’s and 32 free safeties , are the players we are talking about in the top half? Your position is that DMC sucks, and Jon Jones can't cover receivers. I disagree on both counts. I also haven't watched all the other DB's in the NFL in a regular basis, so I am unqualified to tell you where they slot in. I do think Jon Jones is a very good slot/nickel, and DMC was been solid and reliable for a long time... and his snap counts would support that. Disagreement noted… |
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Post by solly on Mar 25, 2023 6:36:37 GMT -5
If DMC and Jon Jones both suck, what does that say about BB? I mean, DMC played the most snaps on the entire defense last year, and Jon Jones would've played the 2nd most, had he not missed week 17. I think they’re both good players, but some would tell you Malcolm butler sucked in 2017 even though he played virtually every snap |
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Post by ucmiami on Mar 25, 2023 13:05:39 GMT -5
The only folks that look at every player in every game are PFF and while they have problems it is still interesting. They do not distinguish between free and strong probably because no safety plays all the time in a particular alignment so 64 starters and probably close to double that in guys playing 30% of better. And they do not rank based on snap counts:
DMC ranked at 32 so top middle of the pack.
Phillips at 8
Dugger at 9
When they did their Tier break down
DMC #10 Free Safety
Phillips #4 Box strong safety
Dugger #6 Matchup Slot
So for what it is worth PFF thinks NE safeties were top tier in the NFL including the aging DMC. I tend to agree.
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