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Post by backbay on Apr 5, 2024 10:13:47 GMT -5
If it didn’t pass him by, what are the reasons for this team so short on talent? Along with drafting and overall player evaluation. id say injuries and a bad QB. some folks have said there was enough talent; but poorly coached on offensive side of ball?
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Post by TFB12 on Apr 5, 2024 10:20:20 GMT -5
Wozzy posting agenda on this forum in one simple demonstration…..
Wozzy “Belichick was ultimately responsible for drafting Brady”
Wozzy “Kraft made Belichick draft Jones”
🤡
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Post by lioneljoe on Apr 5, 2024 10:22:00 GMT -5
id say injuries and a bad QB. I agree 100% on injuries - especially on the line. But I don't think we shine the light on coaching as brightly as we should. The offensive coaching staff as a whole was a clown show in 2022 and 2023. Bill O'Brien was brought in to run the show yet not allowed to bring in any of "his" position guys - basically eliminating any chance for real change. McDaniels took significant coaching talent with him to Vegas and BB wasn't able to (or wasn't interested in) rebuilding it. You can put 11 very talented players on the field but without effective coaching and leadership you're going to get dysfunction. It may look like lack of talent but that's not the root of the problem.
I also don't believe Mac Jones sucks or is even a bad QB. I think he's an immature, snotty little twat but the problems on offense were much larger than him. Add to that that he's gone...no longer our problem and I'm confused as to why he is still a focus of threads here.
Lots of former Patriots players come up in discussions that we are talking about Mac Jones should not be a surprise. Besides, it’s before the draft and Mac Jones is very amusing.
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Post by carawaydj on Apr 5, 2024 10:22:20 GMT -5
I agree 100% on injuries - especially on the line. But I don't think we shine the light on coaching as brightly as we should. The offensive coaching staff as a whole was a clown show in 2022 and 2023. Bill O'Brien was brought in to run the show yet not allowed to bring in any of "his" position guys - basically eliminating any chance for real change. McDaniels took significant coaching talent with him to Vegas and BB wasn't able to (or wasn't interested in) rebuilding it. You can put 11 very talented players on the field but without effective coaching and leadership you're going to get dysfunction. It may look like lack of talent but that's not the root of the problem.
I also don't believe Mac Jones sucks or is even a bad QB. I think he's an immature, snotty little twat but the problems on offense were much larger than him. Add to that that he's gone...no longer our problem and I'm confused as to why he is still a focus of threads here.
I always wondered why BOB wasn't allowed bring in his own guys. Did BB even want him as the OC or was that a Kraft pick? There are a lot of questions of decisions that BB made in his last few seasons that did not seem like him. I think the gist of it starts with the Mac Jones pick which I'm sure now that he never wanted but was forced on him by the collaboration/the Kraft's and things went downhill from there. I have a hard time believing BB didn't want to draft Mac. FWIW, the beat guys closest to the team say that was a crock. BB has a very loyal camp of supporters and for a reason. But IMHO, these guys are behind all of the "but BB actually didn't want…" stories. We were told Patricia only did BB a favor being OC because BB wanted OB but had to wait a year. I know we all remember this. I know all of us remember hearing for all of 2022 that BB wants OB. But when the offense actually looked worse the story changed to "BB didn't want OB but had him forced upon him". I don't doubt that BB was told to get a real OC though. So there are two competing realities, one of which is probably true. The first is that BB made Patricia the OC not as a short-term solution, but because he thought they could make it work and he would be successful as an OC. He actually did want to bring Patricia back for 2023. The other reality is that Patricia was indeed a stop-gap solution only for 2022 and OB was in fact the guy BB wanted all along. There is the same waffling with Mac. BB didn't look disgruntled when they showed film of them making the Mac pick. We all talked about the genius of BB and how he got Mac without having to trade up. There wasn't a hint of anyone talking about how BB didn't want to pick Mac for all of the 2021 season. Both the OB and Mac situations have one thing in common. We never heard anything about BB not wanting those two until it became obvious they didn't work out. That raises a red flag for me. It smells like horse crap. It smells like revisionist history to me. With all that said, I do agree that BB was not being BB the past few seasons. I am starting to wonder if his problem isn't that he didn't listen to those around him, but that he did. Almost seems like he surrounded himself with the wrong people and those people muscled him out with Mayo being the point man…with his head a good two feet up Kraft's ass.
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Post by TFB12 on Apr 5, 2024 10:24:46 GMT -5
what did Malcolm Butler do? Yes… what did he do? He did do something…. Something that pissed off Belichick so much that he benched former Super Bowl hero in a Super Bowl. We may never know why but Belichick’s pattern of behavior is clear. Butler declined BB’s low ball contract offer. He was gone after the season. Belichick said watch this… I can coach this defense enough to win without you and I will look like a genius. BB ego failed. Fail!
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Post by salcon on Apr 5, 2024 10:39:54 GMT -5
I always wondered why BOB wasn't allowed bring in his own guys. Did BB even want him as the OC or was that a Kraft pick? There are a lot of questions of decisions that BB made in his last few seasons that did not seem like him. I think the gist of it starts with the Mac Jones pick which I'm sure now that he never wanted but was forced on him by the collaboration/the Kraft's and things went downhill from there. I have a hard time believing BB didn't want to draft Mac. FWIW, the beat guys closest to the team say that was a crock. BB has a very loyal camp of supporters and for a reason. But IMHO, these guys are behind all of the "but BB actually didn't want…" stories. We were told Patricia only did BB a favor being OC because BB wanted OB but had to wait a year. I know we all remember this. I know all of us remember hearing for all of 2022 that BB wants OB. But when the offense actually looked worse the story changed to "BB didn't want OB but had him forced upon him". I don't doubt that BB was told to get a real OC though. So there are two competing realities, one of which is probably true. The first is that BB made Patricia the OC not as a short-term solution, but because he thought they could make it work and he would be successful as an OC. He actually did want to bring Patricia back for 2023. The other reality is that Patricia was indeed a stop-gap solution only for 2022 and OB was in fact the guy BB wanted all along. There is the same waffling with Mac. BB didn't look disgruntled when they showed film of them making the Mac pick. We all talked about the genius of BB and how he got Mac without having to trade up. There wasn't a hint of anyone talking about how BB didn't want to pick Mac for all of the 2021 season. Both the OB and Mac situations have one thing in common. We never heard anything about BB not wanting those two until it became obvious they didn't work out. That raises a red flag for me. It smells like horse crap. It smells like revisionist history to me. With all that said, I do agree that BB was not being BB the past few seasons. I am starting to wonder if his problem isn't that he didn't listen to those around him, but that he did. Almost seems like he surrounded himself with the wrong people and those people muscled him out with Mayo being the point man…with his head a good two feet up Kraft's ass. If he really wanted BOB why didn't he let him bring in his own offensive assistants? That's the big question for me. The rest is all speculation of course and who knows if he really wanted Mac? Only the people in that room. I wish Edelman asked Ernie that question. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't answer. I'm not sure he was as easily duped by Mac as we fans were. But, most us were able to see that 2/3's into his rookie season he was already declining. I was thinking that he just may have hit the "rookie wall". That wasn't it though. He just sucked despite who the OC's were.
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Post by rkarp on Apr 5, 2024 11:20:07 GMT -5
why do you continue to hang your hat on this nonsense? every football decision made, was made by Bill. period. Kraft asked/told him to listen to his people more. perhaps Bill did, perhaps Bill did not. at the end of the day, it was Bill's, and only Bill's decision. even today, I am sure each regional scout submits their work. Groh, WIlliams, Highsmith, Wolf and Mayo will review, discuss, argue and agree. but at the end of the day, the final decision will be made by 1 person, Wolf. Exact opposite of what you were saying in 2021 when Kraft held his press conference, total opposite of what Wickersham and other reporters are saying now... but you keep doing you. I have been very consistent in saying that Kraft told BB to listen to his scouting people. I have also been very consistent saying Kraft forcing BB to draft Mac is utter BS. Bill would have quit, and sued RK for breach of contract
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Post by philskiw on Apr 5, 2024 12:00:40 GMT -5
Ernie Adams didn’t think the game passed bill by. I’ll take his word over someone that hates BB Did you really expect him to say that it did? I value results over what some guy says about another guy. well he was there for a long time. He emphasized the discipline. If the players can’t deal with that then their not realizing the business part
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 5, 2024 12:03:01 GMT -5
Did you really expect him to say that it did? I value results over what some guy says about another guy. well he was there for a long time. He emphasized the discipline. If the players can’t deal with that then their not realizing the business part He (BB) picks the players... and he built an offense that is lacking any impact talent.
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Post by philskiw on Apr 5, 2024 12:07:51 GMT -5
Exact opposite of what you were saying in 2021 when Kraft held his press conference, total opposite of what Wickersham and other reporters are saying now... but you keep doing you. I have been very consistent in saying that Kraft told BB to listen to his scouting people. I have also been very consistent saying Kraft forcing BB to draft Mac is utter BS. Bill would have quit, and sued RK for breach of contract wow that’s a whopper. What owners lawyer would allow that to be in someone’s contract? At that point in the game it’s lawyers involved
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Post by Wozzy on Apr 5, 2024 13:11:33 GMT -5
I have been very consistent in saying that Kraft told BB to listen to his scouting people. I have also been very consistent saying Kraft forcing BB to draft Mac is utter BS. Bill would have quit, and sued RK for breach of contract You’ve consistently tried to lie to us over the years instead of simply admit when you were wrong. You’ve also been a consistent BB hater. BB was always collaborative, that usually ended once someone was proven wrong. If newly hired Wolf thought Mac was the guy I’m sure BB was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Once Kraft asked Bill to stick with Mac long after he saw the flaws that’s when he tried to scuttle Mac altogether and move on. BB leaving Mac in during a total meltdown last seasons didn’t make sense to me until now, long after the fact and in light of new information. He was sticking it in Kraft’s face, like you asked for this… so now you’ve got it. I think Bill wanted Davis Mills in the 2nd or 3rd, but collaboration was the new normal in 2021.
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Post by salcon on Apr 5, 2024 13:21:29 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced Mac was a BB pick. Brady, Cassel, Garoppolo and Brissett sure. Two are still in the league and one is going to be our starting QB next season. The other has and could still be a starter at some time. Mac just doesn't seem like a BB pick if you go by his history. He's weak mentally and physically.
Sure, us stupid fans thought we were getting a steal because we don't know sh*t.
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Post by muzwell on Apr 5, 2024 13:40:26 GMT -5
The entire world understood that the game had changed, including everyone on this forum and everyone in Syria and Namibia and Manitoba, schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip were aware of the offensive evolution taking place in football. Alpaca ranchers in Patagonia were all on top of the rule changes and the effect on the sport going forward. But, Bill Belichick was blissfully unaware. Stuck in the 1950s, preparing for the comeback of the wing-T, studying film of Red Grange.
This is what you people think. That’s not a question. It’s the only conclusion one can reasonably draw from the things you are saying, some of you. So, it’s one of two things, Bill Belichick is a mental defective or you just think you know more about the game of football than he does. Not only you but virtually everyone.
How about he just effed up a few personnel decisions and that’s why he’s not the HC of the NEP anymore? Is that too simple, you gotta go to the he’s a doddering old fool thing? Well have at it, but in the end it’s you who look ignorant.
Unreal.
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Post by Wozzy on Apr 5, 2024 13:43:47 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced Mac was a BB pick. Brady, Cassel, Garoppolo and Brissett sure. Two are still in the league and one is going to be our starting QB next season. The other has and could still be a starter at some time. Mac just doesn't seem like a BB pick if you go by his history. He's weak mentally and physically. Sure, us stupid fans thought we were getting a steal because we don't know sh*t. A day(s) after the draft on the GM Shuffle podcast when Femi the host said/repeated that “BB was lucky that Mac fell to him at 15,” Lombardi balked at it and said he knew for certain the Pats were very interested in Davis Mills and would have taken him next. I think Barmore was BB’s chosen player and he may have traded back to get him. They traded up in the 2nd for Barmore so that may have been a collaborative fig leaf to BB from the new normal. How could he be mad if he got the player he wanted anyway. I’m just guessing based on what happened since, but knowing what we know now it makes sense.
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Post by digger0862 on Apr 5, 2024 14:02:14 GMT -5
The entire world understood that the game had changed, including everyone on this forum and everyone in Syria and Namibia and Manitoba, schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip were aware of the offensive evolution taking place in football. Alpaca ranchers in Patagonia were all on top of the rule changes and the effect on the sport going forward. But, Bill Belichick was blissfully unaware. Stuck in the 1950s, preparing for the comeback of the wing-T, studying film of Red Grange. This is what you people think. That’s not a question. It’s the only conclusion one can reasonably draw from the things you are saying, some of you. So, it’s one of two things, Bill Belichick is a mental defective or you just think you know more about the game of football than he does. Not only you but virtually everyone. How about he just effed up a few personnel decisions and that’s why he’s not the HC of the NEP anymore? Is that too simple, you gotta go to the he’s a doddering old fool thing? Well have at it, but in the end it’s you who look ignorant. Unreal. Belichick missed big on Harry, Sanu, Antonio Brown and the Tight End position. It wasn't for lack of trying.
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Post by wonderdrums on Apr 5, 2024 16:11:35 GMT -5
Yes… what did he do? He did do something…. Something that pissed off Belichick so much that he benched former Super Bowl hero in a Super Bowl. We may never know why but Belichick’s pattern of behavior is clear. Butler declined BB’s low ball contract offer. He was gone after the season. Belichick said watch this… I can coach this defense enough to win without you and I will look like a genius. BB ego failed. Fail! He got benched over a contract………that’s some wild speculation.
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Post by ATJ on Apr 6, 2024 5:28:40 GMT -5
I've said this before. It is my opinion that the team's degraded offense was not a consequence of a change in approach, the game actually passing by Belichick or Belichick's alleged diminished capacity.
The team did extremely well for 2 decades under Belichick but that is a very long time for two (perhaps now 3) gigantic egos to effectively function together. Belichick took the same approach to Brady as he did with ever other player on the back 9 of his NFL career. Apparently when he raised the issue of moving on from Brady Kraft would not entertain the idea. Kraft also has a well-reported (and self-disclosed) history of developing personal relationships with the team's QB (Bledsoe, Brady, Mac) and I think that began to wear thin with Belichick, perhaps particularly so re Mac.
I think the foregoing along with some drafting, trading and free agent whiffs all combined to turn what had been an amazingly successful working relationship into a toxic one.
The team's ownership has opted to go in a different direction altogether and that, of course, is their option. Regardless of whether or not this direction is successful only time will tell. But, in the final analysis, I can't dwell on Belichick's departure - what's done is done. I root for the Pats and have done so for a very long time. That ain't changing.
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Post by TFB12 on Apr 6, 2024 23:55:56 GMT -5
Butler declined BB’s low ball contract offer. He was gone after the season. Belichick said watch this… I can coach this defense enough to win without you and I will look like a genius. BB ego failed. Fail! He got benched over a contract………that’s some wild speculation. Wild speculation? It's exactly what a petty Belichick would do. He's done stuff like that in the past.. where have you been? Also, everything else that has been reported of the benching has been proved to be completely wrong.
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Post by rkarp on Apr 7, 2024 5:11:25 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced Mac was a BB pick. Brady, Cassel, Garoppolo and Brissett sure. Two are still in the league and one is going to be our starting QB next season. The other has and could still be a starter at some time. Mac just doesn't seem like a BB pick if you go by his history. He's weak mentally and physically. Sure, us stupid fans thought we were getting a steal because we don't know sh*t. www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2024/01/11/robert-kraft-explains-why-taking-personnel-decisions-away-from-bill-belichick-wouldnt-have-worked/FOXBOROUGH — During Bill Belichick’s final days as Patriots head coach, there was some speculation as to whether team owner Robert Kraft would allow Belichick to return if would be willing to relinquish some of his decision-making power for personnel decisions. Belichick didn’t just coach the players. For much of his Patriots career, he was the one who picked them as well. His track record on such decisions has been spotty at best in recent years, and the team’s performance reflects that. New England has missed the playoffs in three of the past four seasons. This year, they went 4-13 which tied for the worst record in the NFL. The Patriots didn’t have a single player selected for the Pro Bowl either. Belichick signaled during his end of the year press conference earlier this week that he would have been open to giving up some of his power. But, Kraft concluded that it wouldn’t have been a reasonable thing to ask. He explained why on Thursday. “ We thought about that,” Kraft said. “But I’ve had experience running different businesses and trying to develop a team. Think about it: when you have someone like Bill, who’s had control over every decision, every coach we hire, the organization reports to him on the draft and how much money we spend.”
“Every decision has been his, and we’ve always supported him,” Kraft added. “To then take some of that power away and give it to someone else — accountability is important to me in every one of our companies — and where he had the responsibility and then someone else takes it, it’s going to set up confusion. ‘Well, it was his pick and it was a bad pick,’ or ‘He didn’t play him right,’ it just wouldn’t work in my opinion.” At one point years ago, Kraft did opt to consolidate power and have Belichick take over personnel decisions in addition to his coaching duties.
He was asked if handling both jobs is too much for one person in today’s NFL. “Well, that’s a good point,” Kraft said. “Just to be clear, he didn’t have all that power and — I don’t think that happened until after the third Super Bowl. But, it slowly happened and in my opinion he earned it and it worked pretty well for most of the time. “But, all of us need checks and balances in our life,” he added. “We need what I call ‘Dr. No’s’ around us to protect us from ourselves. As things evolved and you get more power, sometimes people are afraid to speak up. I’m speaking about all companies. I think it’s good to have checks and balances and once you have it it’s hard to pull it away and expect to have the accountability that you want.”
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Post by mthurl on Apr 7, 2024 6:09:29 GMT -5
The entire world understood that the game had changed, including everyone on this forum and everyone in Syria and Namibia and Manitoba, schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip were aware of the offensive evolution taking place in football. Alpaca ranchers in Patagonia were all on top of the rule changes and the effect on the sport going forward. But, Bill Belichick was blissfully unaware. Stuck in the 1950s, preparing for the comeback of the wing-T, studying film of Red Grange. This is what you people think. That’s not a question. It’s the only conclusion one can reasonably draw from the things you are saying, some of you. So, it’s one of two things, Bill Belichick is a mental defective or you just think you know more about the game of football than he does. Not only you but virtually everyone. How about he just effed up a few personnel decisions and that’s why he’s not the HC of the NEP anymore? Is that too simple, you gotta go to the he’s a doddering old fool thing? Well have at it, but in the end it’s you who look ignorant. Unreal. This is a truly brilliant post, and I’ve been trying to put something similar together to try to explain it previously but I just couldn’t find the words for it. You did. Bottom line, he screwed up some personnel decision and he didn’t have the quarterback. That got him fired, and that’s all it takes for any of the 100’s of GM’s, head coaches and assistants that have been fired in the NFL. All of these guys can coach, adapt and know the game of football - in fact five years ago we were consistently talking about how Bill was always 2-3 steps ahead of the curve and an innovator - how his defense were able to acquire players for the 3-4 defense because everyone else was running the 4-3, then when everyone adapted to the 3-4 he shifted to the 4-3. I mean, I’ve watched this guy down there in training camp for years, he’s not some sort of tyrant that the players were afraid of. You see him in all these documentaries talking in front of his teams, he very easily connects in very simple terms with a younger generation of football players. He breaks it down quickly, with no pretense or bullshit and tells them exactly what they need to do to win. If anyone doesn’t believe that the younger generation doesn’t understand or connect with a style like that, they are fooling themselves. Plus, this “younger generation” is something Bill has more experience with than more than 90% of the planet…he’s been working and coaching with young players for 40 plus years!! Football players are YOUNG. He is more experienced with THEM and THAT than almost anyone.
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Post by wonderdrums on Apr 7, 2024 8:50:50 GMT -5
He got benched over a contract………that’s some wild speculation. Wild speculation? It's exactly what a petty Belichick would do. He's done stuff like that in the past.. where have you been? Also, everything else that has been reported of the benching has been proved to be completely wrong. So…everything else reported has been wrong, but your speculation is correct? Got it. 👍🏻
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Post by TFB12 on Apr 7, 2024 15:23:48 GMT -5
Wild speculation? It's exactly what a petty Belichick would do. He's done stuff like that in the past.. where have you been? Also, everything else that has been reported of the benching has been proved to be completely wrong. So…everything else reported has been wrong, but your speculation is correct? Got it. 👍🏻 mine hasn’t been debunked. There’s the difference.
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