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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 5, 2024 6:47:30 GMT -5
Roman Wilson year b4 JJM: 25 catches, 420 yards Roman Wilson first year with JJM: 25 catches 376 yards Tez Walker year b4 Maye (Kent State): 58 catches, 921 yards Tez Walker first year with Maye: 41 catches, 699 yards Wow! Not a good sign there.
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Post by rkarp on Apr 5, 2024 7:41:10 GMT -5
all 6 QB's in this discussion have the chance to be very good to great pending the scheme and situation they get drafted into. we all saw first hand Lawrence, Mac, Young and countless others in wrong situations, and struggle greatly. same with these 6. we are really seeing teams lean heavily into coaches that can coach up offenses and QB's. that Pats did not, until we see what AVP and McAdoo bring. the biggest mistake the Pats might make in this transition was not hiring an OC from the McVey or Shanny tree, or not grab a hot OC to be their HC, and then grab the QB at #3
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 5, 2024 8:51:17 GMT -5
all 6 QB's in this discussion have the chance to be very good to great pending the scheme and situation they get drafted into. we all saw first hand Lawrence, Mac, Young and countless others in wrong situations, and struggle greatly. same with these 6. we are really seeing teams lean heavily into coaches that can coach up offenses and QB's. that Pats did not, until we see what AVP and McAdoo bring. the biggest mistake the Pats might make in this transition was not hiring an OC from the McVey or Shanny tree, or not grab a hot OC to be their HC, and then grab the QB at #3 Are we basing this on hopes and dreams or analysis and historical precedent?
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 5, 2024 9:01:26 GMT -5
Roman Wilson year b4 JJM: 25 catches, 420 yards Roman Wilson first year with JJM: 25 catches 376 yards Tez Walker year b4 Maye (Kent State): 58 catches, 921 yards Tez Walker first year with Maye: 41 catches, 699 yards Wilson had 3 TD's before, and 4 TD's his first year with JJM. Why did you stop there? He had 48-789-12 with JJM this year.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 5, 2024 9:08:11 GMT -5
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Post by mthurl on Apr 5, 2024 16:12:56 GMT -5
Roman Wilson year b4 JJM: 25 catches, 420 yards Roman Wilson first year with JJM: 25 catches 376 yards Tez Walker year b4 Maye (Kent State): 58 catches, 921 yards Tez Walker first year with Maye: 41 catches, 699 yards Tez Walker was suspended the first four games of the season he played with Maye. That’s a big difference when cherry picking stats. So, on a new team and with a new quarterback Walker would have had himself more yards, receptions and TDs.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 5, 2024 18:46:31 GMT -5
Roman Wilson year b4 JJM: 25 catches, 420 yards Roman Wilson first year with JJM: 25 catches 376 yards Tez Walker year b4 Maye (Kent State): 58 catches, 921 yards Tez Walker first year with Maye: 41 catches, 699 yards Tez Walker was suspended the first four games of the season he played with Maye. That’s a big difference when cherry picking stats. So, on a new team and with a new quarterback Walker would have had himself more yards, receptions and TDs. Did not know Tez was suspended. FYI....never do I cherry pick stats or intend to deceive. I (and all who know me) consider myself to have the highest level of integrity and ethics. Note that I also did not check to see if any of the other WRs were suspended or missed any games.
So the increase Tez's stats by 50% to make the comparison fairer:
62 catches, 1050 yards.
Still less impressive than Penix/Odunze, by a significant margin, since they are about the same as his previous year.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 5, 2024 18:50:17 GMT -5
Roman Wilson year b4 JJM: 25 catches, 420 yards Roman Wilson first year with JJM: 25 catches 376 yards Tez Walker year b4 Maye (Kent State): 58 catches, 921 yards Tez Walker first year with Maye: 41 catches, 699 yards Wilson had 3 TD's before, and 4 TD's his first year with JJM. Why did you stop there? He had 48-789-12 with JJM this year. Good question. I only used the first year because Tez only played one year with Drake. I wanted to include Maye in the comparison.
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Post by mthurl on Apr 6, 2024 3:28:24 GMT -5
Wilson had 3 TD's before, and 4 TD's his first year with JJM. Why did you stop there? He had 48-789-12 with JJM this year. Good question. I only used the first year because Tez only played one year with Drake. I wanted to include Maye in the comparison. In Wilson’s next season with McCarthy his yardage nearly doubled, his TD receptions nearly tripled and he had nearly doubled his number of receptions. I know you said that you don’t cherry pick stats, but you’re leaving out an amazing amount of content that would put things in perspective.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 6, 2024 8:02:18 GMT -5
Let's do a comparison from the year b4 the QB to 2nd year with the QB:
Wilson B4 JJM: 25/420/3 Wilson 2nd yr with JJM: 48/789/12
Odunze b4 Penix: 41/415/4 Odunze 2nd yr with Penix: 92/1640/13
Franklin b4 Nix: 18/209/2 Franklin 2nd yr with Nix: 81/1383/14
Nabers b4 Daniels: 28/417/4 Nabers 2nd yr with Daniels: 89/1569/14
EDIT: the question I'm trying to answer is: Do any of these QBs make the players around them better? This stat is not intended to unequivocally answer that question. It provides partial information that can be used to piece together an answer.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 6, 2024 12:43:07 GMT -5
Let's do a comparison from the year b4 the QB to 2nd year with the QB: Wilson B4 JJM: 25/420/3 Wilson 2nd yr with JJM: 48/789/12 Odunze b4 Penix: 41/415/4 Odunze 2nd yr with Penix: 92/1640/13 Franklin b4 Nix: 18/209/2 Franklin 2nd yr with Nix: 81/1383/14 Nabers b4 Daniels: 28/417/4 Nabers 2nd yr with Daniels: 89/1569/14 EDIT: the question I'm trying to answer is: Do any of these QBs make the players around them better? This stat is not intended to unequivocally answer that question. It provides partial information that can be used to piece together an answer. What's missing is what the WRs' passing volumes would be had it been another QB replacing the previous one (the b4) But your data is still awesome. It does answer the question about how the QBs impacted the WRs' passing volumes. Is there any reason why you did not use the season per game averages? Some teams (ergo players) played more games than others. Daniels only played 12 versus others playing 14/15. One way to include Maye/Walker is to also show yr 1 with the QB. Of course Maye/Walker would not show a yr 2 with the QB.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 6, 2024 12:55:10 GMT -5
Watch Odunze's "all catches" tape. Look at how Penix drops the ball in a spot where only Odunze can get the ball even though bracketed by defenders. I have read someone post that Odunze is always wide open. That is not true. And when he is open upon catching the ball, it is largely a function of the anticipation of both where to throw the ball and WHEN (the timing, as in the exact moment) to throw the ball. Anticipation is one of the things Chase Daniels pointed out. The first play he talked about showed how both Penix and Odunze can execute an NFL level play desig. So what if Odunze also did his job well in that play? Penix did do. We want the QB to be one who can do his job well. Then you can move on to finding players around him who can do their jobs well too.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 7, 2024 8:44:37 GMT -5
Let's do a comparison from the year b4 the QB to 2nd year with the QB: Wilson B4 JJM: 25/420/3 Wilson 2nd yr with JJM: 48/789/12 Odunze b4 Penix: 41/415/4 Odunze 2nd yr with Penix: 92/1640/13 Franklin b4 Nix: 18/209/2 Franklin 2nd yr with Nix: 81/1383/14 Nabers b4 Daniels: 28/417/4 Nabers 2nd yr with Daniels: 89/1569/14 EDIT: the question I'm trying to answer is: Do any of these QBs make the players around them better? This stat is not intended to unequivocally answer that question. It provides partial information that can be used to piece together an answer. What's missing is what the WRs' passing volumes would be had it been another QB replacing the previous one (the b4) But your data is still awesome. It does answer the question about how the QBs impacted the WRs' passing volumes. Is there any reason why you did not use the season per game averages? Some teams (ergo players) played more games than others. Daniels only played 12 versus others playing 14/15. One way to include Maye/Walker is to also show yr 1 with the QB. Of course Maye/Walker would not show a yr 2 with the QB. You're right......per game averages would be more accurate....but there's only so much time in a day....
Although I do think it is appropriate to penalize a player for missing games....whether it's injury or suspension....both of these reasons will factor (lower the ranking) into a decision.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 7, 2024 14:49:45 GMT -5
What's missing is what the WRs' passing volumes would be had it been another QB replacing the previous one (the b4) But your data is still awesome. It does answer the question about how the QBs impacted the WRs' passing volumes. Is there any reason why you did not use the season per game averages? Some teams (ergo players) played more games than others. Daniels only played 12 versus others playing 14/15. One way to include Maye/Walker is to also show yr 1 with the QB. Of course Maye/Walker would not show a yr 2 with the QB. You're right......per game averages would be more accurate....but there's only so much time in a day....
Although I do think it is appropriate to penalize a player for missing games....whether it's injury or suspension....both of these reasons will factor (lower the ranking) into a decision.
My problem too. Would eb awesome if we could find someone to pay us to do that stuff.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 8, 2024 15:58:29 GMT -5
Here's a youtube clip that will make DaP's day. It's a 3-min video so worth watching to the end. Breer mentioned a word that I was big on last week - anticipation. One thing that Breer mentioned (and mentioend before) that I can still cannot figure out - that MI was daring Penix to throw underneath. I do not understand that comment. MI had 3-4 defenders covering underneath. Penix's receivers almost never tried to go underneath becasue of that. So I might not be understanding what "daring Penix to throw underneath" mean. Does "daring him to throw underneath" mean daring him to throw into coverage?
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Post by carawaydj on Apr 22, 2024 16:35:56 GMT -5
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 22, 2024 17:22:23 GMT -5
My predictions: WAS selects Daniels at R1P2. NEP selects Maye at R1P3. MIN trades up to LAC's R1P5 spot and selects JJM LVR trades up to CHI's R1P9 spot and selects Penix.
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 22, 2024 17:25:24 GMT -5
My predictions: WAS selects Daniels at R1P2. NEP selects Maye at R1P3. MIN trades up to LAC's R1P5 spot and selects JJM LVR trades up to CHI's R1P9 spot and selects Penix. 🤮
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 22, 2024 17:30:14 GMT -5
My predictions: WAS selects Daniels at R1P2. NEP selects Maye at R1P3. MIN trades up to LAC's R1P5 spot and selects JJM LVR trades up to CHI's R1P9 spot and selects Penix. 🤮 Not saying it's what I want. Saying that's what will happen. I will keep an open mind and hope that Maye turns out to be better than Penix or JJM.
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Post by patslifer on Apr 22, 2024 18:34:53 GMT -5
My predictions: WAS selects Daniels at R1P2. NEP selects Maye at R1P3. MIN trades up to LAC's R1P5 spot and selects JJM LVR trades up to CHI's R1P9 spot and selects Penix. Seems realistic.
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Post by philskiw on Apr 22, 2024 20:08:09 GMT -5
We better not blow this pick. Unless we want to pick here every year.
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Post by texaspat on Apr 22, 2024 20:09:31 GMT -5
I’d be all for Penix if they think they can get him at 11 or later. Too many questions about Maye at 3 and I just don’t see franchise QB in JJM. I wouldn't take Penix at #11. That would be absurd. Why trade out of pick #3 if you're going to go Penix at #11? Spot #11 is too far down the draftboard to land one of the top 4 quarterbacks, OT Alt, or one of the 3 top WRs. For this reason, I would not make a trade with the Minnesota Vikings unless they offered a king's ransom. The New York Giants are supposedly looking for a quarterback, and can give the Patriots the 6th overall pick as part of the return. If New England had that high of a pick, they could probably draft Alt, McCarthy, or either of two of the top three WRs. Accordingly, any trade with the Vikings should include at a minimum the 11th and 23rd picks in 2024, their #1 pick and 3rd round pick in 2025, and their first round pick in 2026.
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Post by carawaydj on Apr 22, 2024 20:13:15 GMT -5
We better not blow this pick. Unless we want to pick here every year. Unfortunately, NFL history suggests we probably will blow this pick on a subpar QB. Those are the odds, right? Maybe we'll get lucky and after all these years of so-called great QB classes that get predicted, this one actually will be.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 22, 2024 20:43:43 GMT -5
We better not blow this pick. Unless we want to pick here every year. So don't take a QB @3. Then you're just asking for it.
Trade #3 to the Giants and take Alt. He'll likely be there.
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Post by patsfan2007 on Apr 22, 2024 20:45:12 GMT -5
I’d be all for Penix if they think they can get him at 11 or later. Too many questions about Maye at 3 and I just don’t see franchise QB in JJM. I wouldn't take Penix at #11. That would be absurd. Why trade out of pick #3 if you're going to go Penix at #11? Spot #11 is too far down the draftboard to land one of the top 4 quarterbacks, OT Alt, or one of the 3 top WRs. For this reason, I would not make a trade with the Minnesota Vikings unless they offered a king's ransom. The New York Giants are supposedly looking for a quarterback, and can give the Patriots the 6th overall pick as part of the return. If New England had that high of a pick, they could probably draft Alt, McCarthy, or either of two of the top three WRs. Accordingly, any trade with the Vikings should include at a minimum the 11th and 23rd picks in 2024, their #1 pick and 3rd round pick in 2025, and their first round pick in 2026. Other than scrambling, what is it that JJM/Drake/Daniels can do better than Penix?
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