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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 14, 2024 10:42:10 GMT -5
Ok. And you would take Josh Allen on the Patriots in a friggin second if you could. Any of us would and anyone who says otherwise doesn't want a superstar QB. Sorry idc if he hasn't won a Super Bowl yet, the guy is a top 5 QB in this league. Not necessarily. For free, sure. Otherwise, it would depend on the price. Do you think he is that good for a 27 year old, 6 year NFL veteran? In your own framework, he is much closer to his ceiling/peak. I would not give up a Rd1 pick for Allen. Name me 5 QB's currently better than Josh Allen. I'll wait. Oh and not even being willing to give up A 1st for Allen is just laughable. Just because he hasn't won a Super Bowl doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB in his friggin prime no less.
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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 14, 2024 10:43:48 GMT -5
Not necessarily. For free, sure. Otherwise, it would depend on the price. Do you think he is that good for a 27 year old, 6 year NFL veteran? In your own framework, he is much closer to his ceiling/peak. I would not give up a Rd1 pick for Allen. I wouldn’t give up a first round pick for Allen either. But, I might give up three of them. Seriously, what are we even talking about here lmao. It sounds like fans of other teams who pretend that they wouldn't take prime Tom Brady in a friggin heartbeat if he wanted to come to their franchise just because they hate the Patriots
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 14, 2024 11:08:00 GMT -5
I'd give the #3 pick for Josh Allen... it'd be crazy not to. Also, it'd be crazy for Buffalo to accept so little for him.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 14, 2024 12:15:40 GMT -5
Not necessarily. For free, sure. Otherwise, it would depend on the price. Do you think he is that good for a 27 year old, 6 year NFL veteran? In your own framework, he is much closer to his ceiling/peak. I would not give up a Rd1 pick for Allen. Name me 5 QB's currently better than Josh Allen. I'll wait. Oh and not even being willing to give up A 1st for Allen is just laughable. Just because he hasn't won a Super Bowl doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB in his friggin prime no less. Just in the AFC, I would take the following QBs over Allen: Mahomes, Burrow, L Jackson, Herbert and Lawrence. Here is what's interesting with your line of thinking when you asked me to name 5 QBs. You thought that if I could not not name 5 names, it would be an indication that Allen is a great QB. My interpretation, if I was not able to come up with five names (there are 2 parts to it): 1) The NFL is in a QB slump. The top QBs of the current NFL would not hold the jocks of the top NFL QBs of the 2000-2015. The top QBs in the current NFL (well execept maybe Mahomes) are beatable. You do not need a TB or Manning level QB to be very competitive against the top teams in the AFC... ergo, compete for the SB. 2) I have said it before and I am saying it again. Under the right coaching circumstances, any of the top 6 draft prospects this year has potential to be very competitive against the top veteran QBs. The right coaching circumstance is not the same across the 6, because they are all different types of QBs. Right now, Daniels to WAS looks like the best QB-coach fit.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 14, 2024 12:21:55 GMT -5
I wouldn’t give up a first round pick for Allen either. But, I might give up three of them. Seriously, what are we even talking about here lmao. It sounds like fans of other teams who pretend that they wouldn't take prime Tom Brady in a friggin heartbeat if he wanted to come to their franchise just because they hate the Patriots Why mention TB? Just because I think one way about Allen does not mean I think the same way about TB. Actually it bewilders me how you can even compare the two. Are you saying year 7 Allen is close to being as good as year 7 TB? If not, why did you even mention him?
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 14, 2024 13:07:12 GMT -5
I'd give the #3 pick for Josh Allen... it'd be crazy not to. Also, it'd be crazy for Buffalo to accept so little for him. I wanted to address Muzz's post saying he would be willing to trade 3 first round picks for Allen, but thought it would be best to share my thoughts here so I could kill two birds with one stone, because you bring up a good point and your view is relevant to the conversation. 1) IMO giving up 3 first rounders is insane. Giving 3 first rounders would practically eliminate any chances of rebuilding the team. Any action to acquire an Allen that would preclude the team from building around the QB is a non-starter for me. But I am aware of where Muzz is coming from. Muzz believes that the team is 3 good players away from competing for the SB. I do not believe they are. That's a different discussion. 2) There are people on the disucssion board who feel strongly that they should trade out of P3 to get more draft picks... partly because they believe the team needs to fill a lot of holes (evidence that there is a lot to be debated around how close they are to contending for the SB); but also partly because they fear the risk of picking the wrong QB. To me the risk that he is now as good as he will ever get is real. I am in the minority I guess - I am not impressed by Allen. He is a year 7 QB. He is supposedly at his prime years. But he is navigating a phase that great QBs would be navigating in year 3-4 of their careers. He has a great arm (Bledsoe-like). He is big, strong and can run. I am not seeing him as one who has the mental makeup to win the SB. My grade on Allen is that he is a QB who is not good enough to win the SB but too good to give up on. Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I do not see him having more success than Philip Rivers, even in an overall weaker NFL. Allen has 3-4 years of window left to prove me wrong. 3) On your point about willing to give up P3 for Allen, but BUF would not be willing to accept that deal. BUF would not do something like that largely because (not the only reason) they are pot-committed on him. They have so much invested in him that cutting lose now for a P3 would be crazy. "Investment" often can cloud the assessment/decision. Daniel Jones (a much lesser QB) is a great example of how badly "investment" in a QB can cloud how they view the QB.
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Post by carawaydj on Apr 14, 2024 13:50:06 GMT -5
Not necessarily. For free, sure. Otherwise, it would depend on the price. Do you think he is that good for a 27 year old, 6 year NFL veteran? In your own framework, he is much closer to his ceiling/peak. I would not give up a Rd1 pick for Allen. Name me 5 QB's currently better than Josh Allen. I'll wait. Oh and not even being willing to give up A 1st for Allen is just laughable. Just because he hasn't won a Super Bowl doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB in his friggin prime no less. He's definitely top 5. Maybe it's just me, but top 5 QB in 2024 doesn't mean what is used to mean. I don't consider anyone other than Mahomes as being elite. Burrow is in the zip code. Allen is living in the next zip code over. Would I gladly take him? You bet. QBs as good as him aren't easy to find. Regardless of how I or others view him, he's a top 5 QB and a known. Every single draft pick is a big question mark. Note, I excluded Rodgers the elite category. Just not sure what he is in 2024.
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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 14, 2024 17:23:12 GMT -5
Name me 5 QB's currently better than Josh Allen. I'll wait. Oh and not even being willing to give up A 1st for Allen is just laughable. Just because he hasn't won a Super Bowl doesn't mean he's not a top 5 QB in his friggin prime no less. Just in the AFC, I would take the following QBs over Allen: Mahomes, Burrow, L Jackson, Herbert and Lawrence. Here is what's interesting with your line of thinking when you asked me to name 5 QBs. You thought that if I could not not name 5 names, it would be an indication that Allen is a great QB. My interpretation, if I was not able to come up with five names (there are 2 parts to it): 1) The NFL is in a QB slump. The top QBs of the current NFL would not hold the jocks of the top NFL QBs of the 2000-2015. The top QBs in the current NFL (well execept maybe Mahomes) are beatable. You do not need a TB or Manning level QB to be very competitive against the top teams in the AFC... ergo, compete for the SB. 2) I have said it before and I am saying it again. Under the right coaching circumstances, any of the top 6 draft prospects this year has potential to be very competitive against the top veteran QBs. The right coaching circumstance is not the same across the 6, because they are all different types of QBs. Right now, Daniels to WAS looks like the best QB-coach fit. You say Josh Allen hasn't done shit and yet you'd take Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert over him??? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I actually do somewhat agree the NFL is in a QB slump, but Josh Allen is a game-changing talent who even Belichick (who admitted it himself) ran out of ways to defend against once he had figured it out by year 3.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 14, 2024 18:39:13 GMT -5
Just in the AFC, I would take the following QBs over Allen: Mahomes, Burrow, L Jackson, Herbert and Lawrence. Here is what's interesting with your line of thinking when you asked me to name 5 QBs. You thought that if I could not not name 5 names, it would be an indication that Allen is a great QB. My interpretation, if I was not able to come up with five names (there are 2 parts to it): 1) The NFL is in a QB slump. The top QBs of the current NFL would not hold the jocks of the top NFL QBs of the 2000-2015. The top QBs in the current NFL (well execept maybe Mahomes) are beatable. You do not need a TB or Manning level QB to be very competitive against the top teams in the AFC... ergo, compete for the SB. 2) I have said it before and I am saying it again. Under the right coaching circumstances, any of the top 6 draft prospects this year has potential to be very competitive against the top veteran QBs. The right coaching circumstance is not the same across the 6, because they are all different types of QBs. Right now, Daniels to WAS looks like the best QB-coach fit. You say Josh Allen hasn't done shit and yet you'd take Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert over him??? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I actually do somewhat agree the NFL is in a QB slump, but Josh Allen is a game-changing talent who even Belichick (who admitted it himself) ran out of ways to defend against once he had figured it out by year 3. Most fans of other teams have no idea of how bad LAC's offensive schemes were. Routes were all designed to open up the receivers all at the same time. No way for a QB to actually have a read progression. They have to upgrade at least two interior OL spots, which they can do in Rd 2 and 3. They should also draft one of the top 3 WRs. Nabers would be a better fit for Herbert. I would be surprised if Harbaugh does not get them a wildcard this season. That would change the way people think of Herbert. I have no idea what's going on with Lawrence. In the AFC, that is the least interesting div to me. I never saw a JAX game at all last season. That said, on the surface, unless their RT elevates his game on his second year in the league, it looks like they have problems at both tackle spots.
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Post by muzwell on Apr 15, 2024 16:38:54 GMT -5
I'd give the #3 pick for Josh Allen... it'd be crazy not to. Also, it'd be crazy for Buffalo to accept so little for him. I wanted to address Muzz's post saying he would be willing to trade 3 first round picks for Allen, but thought it would be best to share my thoughts here so I could kill two birds with one stone, because you bring up a good point and your view is relevant to the conversation. 1) IMO giving up 3 first rounders is insane. Giving 3 first rounders would practically eliminate any chances of rebuilding the team. Any action to acquire an Allen that would preclude the team from building around the QB is a non-starter for me. But I am aware of where Muzz is coming from. Muzz believes that the team is 3 good players away from competing for the SB. I do not believe they are. That's a different discussion. 2) There are people on the disucssion board who feel strongly that they should trade out of P3 to get more draft picks... partly because they believe the team needs to fill a lot of holes (evidence that there is a lot to be debated around how close they are to contending for the SB); but also partly because they fear the risk of picking the wrong QB. To me the risk that he is now as good as he will ever get is real. I am in the minority I guess - I am not impressed by Allen. He is a year 7 QB. He is supposedly at his prime years. But he is navigating a phase that great QBs would be navigating in year 3-4 of their careers. He has a great arm (Bledsoe-like). He is big, strong and can run. I am not seeing him as one who has the mental makeup to win the SB. My grade on Allen is that he is a QB who is not good enough to win the SB but too good to give up on. Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I do not see him having more success than Philip Rivers, even in an overall weaker NFL. Allen has 3-4 years of window left to prove me wrong. 3) On your point about willing to give up P3 for Allen, but BUF would not be willing to accept that deal. BUF would not do something like that largely because (not the only reason) they are pot-committed on him. They have so much invested in him that cutting lose now for a P3 would be crazy. "Investment" often can cloud the assessment/decision. Daniel Jones (a much lesser QB) is a great example of how badly "investment" in a QB can cloud how they view the QB. The Bills last three first round picks were Kincaid, Elam and Rousseau. Two of them are good players, one is a mistake (aka a Gator). If you were a team with no quarterback, would you trade those three players for Josh Allen?
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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 15, 2024 17:12:53 GMT -5
Interesting....
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 15, 2024 18:15:50 GMT -5
I wanted to address Muzz's post saying he would be willing to trade 3 first round picks for Allen, but thought it would be best to share my thoughts here so I could kill two birds with one stone, because you bring up a good point and your view is relevant to the conversation. 1) IMO giving up 3 first rounders is insane. Giving 3 first rounders would practically eliminate any chances of rebuilding the team. Any action to acquire an Allen that would preclude the team from building around the QB is a non-starter for me. But I am aware of where Muzz is coming from. Muzz believes that the team is 3 good players away from competing for the SB. I do not believe they are. That's a different discussion. 2) There are people on the disucssion board who feel strongly that they should trade out of P3 to get more draft picks... partly because they believe the team needs to fill a lot of holes (evidence that there is a lot to be debated around how close they are to contending for the SB); but also partly because they fear the risk of picking the wrong QB. To me the risk that he is now as good as he will ever get is real. I am in the minority I guess - I am not impressed by Allen. He is a year 7 QB. He is supposedly at his prime years. But he is navigating a phase that great QBs would be navigating in year 3-4 of their careers. He has a great arm (Bledsoe-like). He is big, strong and can run. I am not seeing him as one who has the mental makeup to win the SB. My grade on Allen is that he is a QB who is not good enough to win the SB but too good to give up on. Maybe he will prove me wrong, but I do not see him having more success than Philip Rivers, even in an overall weaker NFL. Allen has 3-4 years of window left to prove me wrong. 3) On your point about willing to give up P3 for Allen, but BUF would not be willing to accept that deal. BUF would not do something like that largely because (not the only reason) they are pot-committed on him. They have so much invested in him that cutting lose now for a P3 would be crazy. "Investment" often can cloud the assessment/decision. Daniel Jones (a much lesser QB) is a great example of how badly "investment" in a QB can cloud how they view the QB. The Bills last three first round picks were Kincaid, Elam and Rousseau. Two of them are good players, one is a mistake (aka a Gator). If you were a team with no quarterback, would you trade those three players for Josh Allen? That's a different conversation. You are talking about players. That's a false analogy. First, I did not have a first round grade on Kincaid and Elam. I do not remember my grade on Rousseau. That said, I value a rd 1 pick higher than either Elam or Kincaid before they were drafted; and even now. I also value a rd 1 pick more than Roussueau based what he has done. So, I may be willing to trade those three guys for Allen, but it does not mean I would be willing to trade three rd 1 picks for Allen.
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 15, 2024 18:20:12 GMT -5
Just in the AFC, I would take the following QBs over Allen: Mahomes, Burrow, L Jackson, Herbert and Lawrence. Here is what's interesting with your line of thinking when you asked me to name 5 QBs. You thought that if I could not not name 5 names, it would be an indication that Allen is a great QB. My interpretation, if I was not able to come up with five names (there are 2 parts to it): 1) The NFL is in a QB slump. The top QBs of the current NFL would not hold the jocks of the top NFL QBs of the 2000-2015. The top QBs in the current NFL (well execept maybe Mahomes) are beatable. You do not need a TB or Manning level QB to be very competitive against the top teams in the AFC... ergo, compete for the SB. 2) I have said it before and I am saying it again. Under the right coaching circumstances, any of the top 6 draft prospects this year has potential to be very competitive against the top veteran QBs. The right coaching circumstance is not the same across the 6, because they are all different types of QBs. Right now, Daniels to WAS looks like the best QB-coach fit. You say Josh Allen hasn't done shit and yet you'd take Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert over him??? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I actually do somewhat agree the NFL is in a QB slump, but Josh Allen is a game-changing talent who even Belichick (who admitted it himself) ran out of ways to defend against once he had figured it out by year 3. Yes. To me the three are in the same bucket of QBs. The difference is that Allen looks better becasue he is in a better system. All things equal, I believe Herbert and Lawrence would outperform Allen.
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Post by muzwell on Apr 16, 2024 6:21:09 GMT -5
The Bills last three first round picks were Kincaid, Elam and Rousseau. Two of them are good players, one is a mistake (aka a Gator). If you were a team with no quarterback, would you trade those three players for Josh Allen? That's a different conversation. You are talking about players. That's a false analogy. First, I did not have a first round grade on Kincaid and Elam. I do not remember my grade on Rousseau. That said, I value a rd 1 pick higher than either Elam or Kincaid before they were drafted; and even now. I also value a rd 1 pick more than Roussueau based what he has done. So, I may be willing to trade those three guys for Allen, but it does not mean I would be willing to trade three rd 1 picks for Allen. The point is if the Bills traded three first round picks for him three years ago those would be the three players they didn’t draft. No big loss. Those types of players are out there every year. Josh Allen is not. I’ve always thought people overrate draft picks until they actually pick a player. Then it’s like that’s all there is? All that build up for that?
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Post by rkarp on Apr 16, 2024 6:39:03 GMT -5
Allen is in a critical year. he is going to be asked to do more with less. will he be able to carry the load. the Bills have not been able to find the perfect OC match with Allen since Daboll left. McDermott not the best fit for a team with Allen at QB either. I have to think this is make or break year for McDermott.
I too believe Mahomes is on a level by himself. Borrows next. Allen is a notch maybe two below. Lawrence and Herbert do not register yet other than unfulfilled promise. Stafford would be there other than injury/age issues.
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Post by carawaydj on Apr 16, 2024 8:56:33 GMT -5
Allen is in a critical year. he is going to be asked to do more with less. will he be able to carry the load. the Bills have not been able to find the perfect OC match with Allen since Daboll left. McDermott not the best fit for a team with Allen at QB either. I have to think this is make or break year for McDermott. I too believe Mahomes is on a level by himself. Borrows next. Allen is a notch maybe two below. Lawrence and Herbert do not register yet other than unfulfilled promise. Stafford would be there other than injury/age issues. Yup. Mahomes is the sole truly elite QB in the NFL right now. He stands alone on top of the hill. Burrow is halfway up the hill but he still has a good climb before he reaches the top. The other guys are still at the base of the hill. They can wow and excite you on some plays, or even some games, but elite they are not. Being a top 5 QB today does not mean what it once did. That said, most fans would still cut off a limb to have Allen, Herbert, or Lawrence. They may not be elite but there are good, known quantities, and any QB draft pick is a gamble with a high chance of sucking.
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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 16, 2024 9:06:51 GMT -5
www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2024-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-giants-leap-up-for-j-j-mccarthy-vikings-stick-and-pick-cb-qbPeter Schrager: “ Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye."
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 16, 2024 9:29:06 GMT -5
www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2024-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-giants-leap-up-for-j-j-mccarthy-vikings-stick-and-pick-cb-qbPeter Schrager: “ Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye." And it was reported by Tony Pauline that "other NFL GM's" believe Wolf is in love with JJM. So, it's anyone's guess at this point.
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Post by backbay on Apr 16, 2024 11:09:09 GMT -5
do they do a workout on 2nd day?....
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Post by backbay on Apr 16, 2024 11:11:05 GMT -5
www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2024-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-giants-leap-up-for-j-j-mccarthy-vikings-stick-and-pick-cb-qbPeter Schrager: “ Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye." If Wolf and Patriots are smart, they're going to throw out as many smoke bombs as possible. That's part of the game.
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 16, 2024 11:17:58 GMT -5
www.nfl.com/news/peter-schrager-2024-nfl-mock-draft-1-0-giants-leap-up-for-j-j-mccarthy-vikings-stick-and-pick-cb-qbPeter Schrager: “ Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye." If Wolf and Patriots are smart, they're going to throw out as many smoke bombs as possible. That's part of the game. What would they be looking to accomplish with these smoke bombs? They're in a position where they can just take their favorite of the available QB's at #3. So to me, they could just say nothing, and it would accomplish the same as a mass misdirection campaign. Now, if they're looking to trade back, then I could see said smoke bombs having some potential value.
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Post by backbay on Apr 16, 2024 11:52:30 GMT -5
You say Josh Allen hasn't done shit and yet you'd take Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert over him??? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one I actually do somewhat agree the NFL is in a QB slump, but Josh Allen is a game-changing talent who even Belichick (who admitted it himself) ran out of ways to defend against once he had figured it out by year 3. Most fans of other teams have no idea of how bad LAC's offensive schemes were. Routes were all designed to open up the receivers all at the same time. No way for a QB to actually have a read progression. They have to upgrade at least two interior OL spots, which they can do in Rd 2 and 3. They should also draft one of the top 3 WRs. Nabers would be a better fit for Herbert. I would be surprised if Harbaugh does not get them a wildcard this season. That would change the way people think of Herbert. I have no idea what's going on with Lawrence. In the AFC, that is the least interesting div to me. I never saw a JAX game at all last season. That said, on the surface, unless their RT elevates his game on his second year in the league, it looks like they have problems at both tackle spots. as opposed to the Patriots' offensive schemes where routes were all designed to have none of the receivers open at any time......lol
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