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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 11:41:16 GMT -5
It was an Interesting Question Posed Here 12:30
Which QB will give Patriots best chance to compete w/ AFC teams that have QBs like Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Herbert, Stroud, Jackson, Burrow (and Maybe Lawrence) in short vs. mid vs. long term.
Daniels, Maye, or JJ McCarthy?
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 11:55:56 GMT -5
It was an Interesting Question Posed Here 12:30
Which QB will give Patriots best chance to compete w/ AFC teams that have QBs like Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Herbert, Stroud, Jackson, Burrow (and Maybe Lawrence) in short vs. mid vs. long term.
Daniels, Maye, or JJ McCarthy?
depends on the teams approach. do they want to win 17-13 games and have the defense and ST win games while the offense does not lose games? or do they want to win 34-31 games. just my opinion, as good as the Pats D might be, Rodgers, ALlen, Mahomes, Burrow are going to score a lot of points. |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 11, 2024 12:32:07 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)?
My answer in order of preference:
JJ
Jayden
Penix Jr.
Maye
Nix
My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful.
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 12:43:12 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. wow! |
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Post by DaPatriots on Apr 11, 2024 12:51:33 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. A wise man said he makes all the throws! |
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Post by ucmiami on Apr 11, 2024 12:55:23 GMT -5
If you are drafting a QB based on his ability to perform against any group of NFL teams QBs, I think you are crazy. To begin with your QB will be competing against defenses not QBs. And second the best QB option is the best future QB for the offense you will run. Your defense has to deal with the opposing team's QB, worry about the defense you field for stopping opposing QBs.
Stupid question to my mind. Any elite NFL QB can lead his team to points, and any bad QB will struggle, so just identify an elite QB and give him a good offense team and game plan.
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Post by ucmiami on Apr 11, 2024 13:22:41 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. I am sort of surprised in the 'apparent' lack of interest by the Pats in Penix - I understand the concern about medicals, but nothing has come out saying teams actually consider him a 'risk' after two healthy years. I don't see anything in his game or mental makeup that would say he is unfit for whatever kind of offense they intend to run compared to the strengths of the other five. Yeah he will be 24 on opening day, but QBs are playing well into their late 30s in the modern NFL, which if he pans out gives you a 15 year window and Nix is the same age, Daniels will turn 24 during the season and Caleb will turn 23. Maye and JJ are the two youngsters |
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 13:35:21 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. I am sort of surprised in the 'apparent' lack of interest by the Pats in Penix - I understand the concern about medicals, but nothing has come out saying teams actually consider him a 'risk' after two healthy years. I don't see anything in his game or mental makeup that would say he is unfit for whatever kind of offense they intend to run compared to the strengths of the other five. Yeah he will be 24 on opening day, but QBs are playing well into their late 30s in the modern NFL, which if he pans out gives you a 15 year window and Nix is the same age, Daniels will turn 24 during the season and Caleb will turn 23. Maye and JJ are the two youngsters he struggled against a pro style defense against Michigan. the concern is mental. not age. not medical. |
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 13:35:26 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. part of the context of the question in the video - was the mention of the changing of NFL rules favoring QBs and WRs; to generate the excitement of scoring. So, one viewpoint was McCarthy might get you some wins in yr 1 and yr 2, but he may not be the answer when trying to compete against the top 3 teams in AFC East. In other words; they'll have to face 2-3 teams with QBs like Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, Stroud....etc.
Whereas, if they drafted Maye - they're likely going to have to sit him a year......so, maybe no early wins, but if they can fix his feet - may develop into a Josh Allen type who can bring success in years 3-5 and beyond.
With Daniels - the concern is....if he gets ragdolled 1 too many times at the NFL level, he may simply never get back on the field again. Considering we don't know if the current OL can protect him.....it's a risk.
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 13:37:49 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. I am sort of surprised in the 'apparent' lack of interest by the Pats in Penix - I understand the concern about medicals, but nothing has come out saying teams actually consider him a 'risk' after two healthy years. I don't see anything in his game or mental makeup that would say he is unfit for whatever kind of offense they intend to run compared to the strengths of the other five. Yeah he will be 24 on opening day, but QBs are playing well into their late 30s in the modern NFL, which if he pans out gives you a 15 year window and Nix is the same age, Daniels will turn 24 during the season and Caleb will turn 23. Maye and JJ are the two youngsters just my 2 cents; I don't like his 3/4 sidearm throwing motion. Considering we are talking about NFL .....(and the state of our OL), I suspect we will see a lot of blocked/deflected passes and forced fumbles and INTs occur more often from defenders getting to his left arm. |
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 13:44:14 GMT -5
If you are drafting a QB based on his ability to perform against any group of NFL teams QBs, I think you are crazy. To begin with your QB will be competing against defenses not QBs. And second the best QB option is the best future QB for the offense you will run. Your defense has to deal with the opposing team's QB, worry about the defense you field for stopping opposing QBs. Stupid question to my mind. Any elite NFL QB can lead his team to points, and any bad QB will struggle, so just identify an elite QB and give him a good offense team and game plan. that is a great point. thank you for bringing that up. So, really - the question is which QB will make our offense better so that our team can consistently score more points than those teams that make it deep into the playoffs. Those teams are going to be generally the teams led by very good QBs; i.e., Mahomes, Allen.....etc. |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 11, 2024 13:59:38 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. part of the context of the question in the video - was the mention of the changing of NFL rules favoring QBs and WRs; to generate the excitement of scoring. So, one viewpoint was McCarthy might get you some wins in yr 1 and yr 2, but he may not be the answer when trying to compete against the top 3 teams in AFC East. In other words; they'll have to face 2-3 teams with QBs like Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, Stroud....etc.
Whereas, if they drafted Maye - they're likely going to have to sit him a year......so, maybe no early wins, but if they can fix his feet - may develop into a Josh Allen type who can bring success in years 3-5 and beyond.
With Daniels - the concern is....if he gets ragdolled 1 too many times at the NFL level, he may simply never get back on the field again. Considering we don't know if the current OL can protect him.....it's a risk.
If heard that take, or similar takes and I don't understand the logic behind it. I've been told that McCarthy hasn't proven that he can lead a team, and wasn't asked to do it, but in this scenario, he's more qualified to elevate the team in year one... while Maye, who has all these attributes and traits that you can't teach, and has lead UNC, will be the better QB to lead the team in future years. In all honesty, I don't see Maye doing things that McCarthy can't. I also put very little value in the "Player Comp Fallacy" as they really mean nothing. I've been told that JJM is a leader, but so was Mac, thus JJM = Mac, and Maye is big, athletic and strong armed, and so is Josh Allen and Justin Herbert, thus Maye = Allen/Justin Herbert. And, this isn't a response to you specifically, more towards the topic(s) in general. |
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 15:21:45 GMT -5
The question can be asked a number of ways, but to me it's still the same question. Which QB gives them the best opportunity to build around and win (regardless of if it's AFC or NFC)? My answer in order of preference: JJ Jayden Penix Jr. Maye Nix My gut still says Penix Jr. will be the most successful. part of the context of the question in the video - was the mention of the changing of NFL rules favoring QBs and WRs; to generate the excitement of scoring. So, one viewpoint was McCarthy might get you some wins in yr 1 and yr 2, but he may not be the answer when trying to compete against the top 3 teams in AFC East. In other words; they'll have to face 2-3 teams with QBs like Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, Stroud....etc.
Whereas, if they drafted Maye - they're likely going to have to sit him a year......so, maybe no early wins, but if they can fix his feet - may develop into a Josh Allen type who can bring success in years 3-5 and beyond.
With Daniels - the concern is....if he gets ragdolled 1 too many times at the NFL level, he may simply never get back on the field again. Considering we don't know if the current OL can protect him.....it's a risk.
which is what I said, and have been saying for a number of seasons now its an offensive league teams that score in the upper 20's will win. a great QB and good targets can do so. a good qB and great targets can do so. until the Pats upgrade their weapons, they dont have good targets. no one that garners double coverage or scheme specific. maybe a drafted rookie could be great season 1, but more than likely it will take 3 years for a rookie QB this year to carry a team. |
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 11, 2024 15:47:22 GMT -5
I am sort of surprised in the 'apparent' lack of interest by the Pats in Penix - I understand the concern about medicals, but nothing has come out saying teams actually consider him a 'risk' after two healthy years. I don't see anything in his game or mental makeup that would say he is unfit for whatever kind of offense they intend to run compared to the strengths of the other five. Yeah he will be 24 on opening day, but QBs are playing well into their late 30s in the modern NFL, which if he pans out gives you a 15 year window and Nix is the same age, Daniels will turn 24 during the season and Caleb will turn 23. Maye and JJ are the two youngsters he struggled against a pro style defense against Michigan. the concern is mental. not age. not medical. He was pressured 17 times - one fewer than the number of passes JJM threw on that game. Are you saying the other QB prospects would have done better in that situation? See, your logic sounds good on the surface, but actually flawed. The only reason the other QBs never looked as bad against MI's D is that they did not have to play against MI's D. You are giving the other QBs as much credit for not being tested by the same defense, as you would, had they played against MI's D and succeeded. Here is a fact for you: The other QBs have done the same or even worse against much lesser defenses; defenitely against fewer pressures. |
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 15:55:38 GMT -5
he struggled against a pro style defense against Michigan. the concern is mental. not age. not medical. He was pressured 17 times - one fewer than the number of passes JJM threw on that game. Are you saying the other QB prospects would have done better in that situation? See, your logic sounds good on the surface, but actually flawed. The only reason the other QBs never looked as bad against MI's D is that they did not have to play against MI's D. You are giving the other QBs as much credit for not being tested by the same defense, as you would, had they played against MI's D and succeeded. Here is a fact for you: The other QBs have done the same or even worse against much lesser defenses; defenitely against fewer pressures. Penix struggles against Michigan were mental. the defense had him confused and off his game, he struggled to figure it out. Maryland, OSU and Alabama moved the ball and scored points on Michigan. Washington struggled and looked bad doing so |
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Post by seattlepat2016 on Apr 11, 2024 16:28:40 GMT -5
He was pressured 17 times - one fewer than the number of passes JJM threw on that game. Are you saying the other QB prospects would have done better in that situation? See, your logic sounds good on the surface, but actually flawed. The only reason the other QBs never looked as bad against MI's D is that they did not have to play against MI's D. You are giving the other QBs as much credit for not being tested by the same defense, as you would, had they played against MI's D and succeeded. Here is a fact for you: The other QBs have done the same or even worse against much lesser defenses; defenitely against fewer pressures. the defense had him confused and off his game, he struggled to figure it out. Maryland, OSU and Alabama moved the ball and scored points on Michigan. Washington struggled and looked bad doing so Wow! You have actually isolated it to that one factor, huh? You are very sure it was not something more simple. Like the ground game of those teams you mentioned being more effective. That had nothing to do with it - i.e., was not a big factor in helping their QBs. Maryland: Tagovailoa had 0 TD and 2 INTs. MD had a total of 280 yds against MI (WA had 301). Somehow they scored 3 rushing TDs Alabama: Rushed for 172 yds (avg 4.0 yds) and 2 TDs OH St: Rushed for 107 yds (avg 3.8 yds) and 1 TD WA: Rushed for 46 yds (avg 2.3 yds), 0 TDs |
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Post by rkarp on Apr 11, 2024 16:39:21 GMT -5
Penix struggles against Michigan were mental. the defense had him confused and off his game, he struggled to figure it out. Maryland, OSU and Alabama moved the ball and scored points on Michigan. Washington struggled and looked bad doing so Wow! You have actually isolated it to that one factor, huh? You are very sure it was not something more simple. Like the ground game of those teams you mentioned being more effective. That had nothing to do with it - i.e., was not a big factor in helping their QBs. Maryland: Tagovailoa had 0 TD and 2 INTs. MD had a total of 280 yds against MI (WA had 301). Somehow they scored 3 rushing TDs Alabama: Rushed for 172 yds (avg 4.0 yds) and 2 TDs OH St: Rushed for 107 yds (avg 3.8 yds) and 1 TD WA: Rushed for 46 yds (avg 2.3 yds), 0 TDs I have not isolated anything like I said, this is what Dane Brugler of the Athletic said on the Eisen pod after he talked to scouts. |
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 21:23:32 GMT -5
he struggled against a pro style defense against Michigan. the concern is mental. not age. not medical. He was pressured 17 times - one fewer than the number of passes JJM threw on that game. Are you saying the other QB prospects would have done better in that situation? See, your logic sounds good on the surface, but actually flawed. The only reason the other QBs never looked as bad against MI's D is that they did not have to play against MI's D. You are giving the other QBs as much credit for not being tested by the same defense, as you would, had they played against MI's D and succeeded. Here is a fact for you: The other QBs have done the same or even worse against much lesser defenses; defenitely against fewer pressures. I think there were stats comparing performance under pressure, and McCarthy beat Maye hands down. Also, Mcarthy completed a higher percentage of passes on 3rd down situations vs Maye. |
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 21:28:58 GMT -5
part of the context of the question in the video - was the mention of the changing of NFL rules favoring QBs and WRs; to generate the excitement of scoring. So, one viewpoint was McCarthy might get you some wins in yr 1 and yr 2, but he may not be the answer when trying to compete against the top 3 teams in AFC East. In other words; they'll have to face 2-3 teams with QBs like Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, Stroud....etc.
Whereas, if they drafted Maye - they're likely going to have to sit him a year......so, maybe no early wins, but if they can fix his feet - may develop into a Josh Allen type who can bring success in years 3-5 and beyond.
With Daniels - the concern is....if he gets ragdolled 1 too many times at the NFL level, he may simply never get back on the field again. Considering we don't know if the current OL can protect him.....it's a risk.
If heard that take, or similar takes and I don't understand the logic behind it. I've been told that McCarthy hasn't proven that he can lead a team, and wasn't asked to do it, but in this scenario, he's more qualified to elevate the team in year one... while Maye, who has all these attributes and traits that you can't teach, and has lead UNC, will be the better QB to lead the team in future years. In all honesty, I don't see Maye doing things that McCarthy can't. I also put very little value in the "Player Comp Fallacy" as they really mean nothing. I've been told that JJM is a leader, but so was Mac, thus JJM = Mac, and Maye is big, athletic and strong armed, and so is Josh Allen and Justin Herbert, thus Maye = Allen/Justin Herbert. And, this isn't a response to you specifically, more towards the topic(s) in general. I thought it was a little different. McCarthy can lead a pro style offense, but his ability to “carry the team on his shoulders “ is indeterminant because he was surrounded by good WRs, a good rb, and protected by a very good OL. Some are implying that McCarthy has a lower ceiling vs Maye, and if McCarthy isn’t surrounded by a very good supporting players around him, also has a lower floor? In the same vein, because Maye was not surrounded by good players , a poorer OL, and inconsistent coaching stability, some are speculating that he has a higher floor, and higher ceiling than McCarthy |
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Post by freediro on Apr 11, 2024 21:36:36 GMT -5
Immediately for the Pats it would be,
Daniels
Maye
JJ
In the next 2-3 years
Maye
Daniels
JJ
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Post by backbay on Apr 11, 2024 21:41:21 GMT -5
Immediately for the Pats it would be, Daniels Maye JJ In the next 2-3 years Maye Daniels JJ Thanks for your post. Immediately I would say Daniels McCarthy Maye, because of his bad footwork |
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Apr 12, 2024 8:18:19 GMT -5
If heard that take, or similar takes and I don't understand the logic behind it. I've been told that McCarthy hasn't proven that he can lead a team, and wasn't asked to do it, but in this scenario, he's more qualified to elevate the team in year one... while Maye, who has all these attributes and traits that you can't teach, and has lead UNC, will be the better QB to lead the team in future years. In all honesty, I don't see Maye doing things that McCarthy can't. I also put very little value in the "Player Comp Fallacy" as they really mean nothing. I've been told that JJM is a leader, but so was Mac, thus JJM = Mac, and Maye is big, athletic and strong armed, and so is Josh Allen and Justin Herbert, thus Maye = Allen/Justin Herbert. And, this isn't a response to you specifically, more towards the topic(s) in general. I thought it was a little different. McCarthy can lead a pro style offense, but his ability to “carry the team on his shoulders “ is indeterminant because he was surrounded by good WRs, a good rb, and protected by a very good OL. Some are implying that McCarthy has a lower ceiling vs Maye, and if McCarthy isn’t surrounded by a very good supporting players around him, also has a lower floor? In the same vein, because Maye was not surrounded by good players , a poorer OL, and inconsistent coaching stability, some are speculating that he has a higher floor, and higher ceiling than McCarthy Being surrounded by good WR's is what Daniels and Penix Jr. had the luxury of. Michigan had a pretty good WR in Roman Wilson, and he'll probably be a day 2 slot guy. UNC had a pretty good one as well. Overall, McCarthy was on the better team, yes. However, the talk has turned to "McCarthy didn't need to carry is team, thus that's a red flag", where as with Maye, he hasn't really shown that he can carry his team (he was 17-10 as a starter), but gets a pass because he wasn't surrounded by elite talent. I'm not even looking to debate the merits of each, as my mind is already made up, and I'm sure most feel the same way about their preferred guy. I just find it interesting that one dude hasn't had to carry his team, thus there are questions about his ability to, but the other hasn't been able to, thus he has a higher upside. |
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Post by backbay on Apr 12, 2024 8:26:02 GMT -5
I thought it was a little different. McCarthy can lead a pro style offense, but his ability to “carry the team on his shoulders “ is indeterminant because he was surrounded by good WRs, a good rb, and protected by a very good OL. Some are implying that McCarthy has a lower ceiling vs Maye, and if McCarthy isn’t surrounded by a very good supporting players around him, also has a lower floor? In the same vein, because Maye was not surrounded by good players , a poorer OL, and inconsistent coaching stability, some are speculating that he has a higher floor, and higher ceiling than McCarthy Being surrounded by good WR's is what Daniels and Penix Jr. had the luxury of. Michigan had a pretty good WR in Roman Wilson, and he'll probably be a day 2 slot guy. UNC had a pretty good one as well. Overall, McCarthy was on the better team, yes. However, the talk has turned to "McCarthy didn't need to carry is team, thus that's a red flag", where as with Maye, he hasn't really shown that he can carry his team (he was 17-10 as a starter), but gets a pass because he wasn't surrounded by elite talent. I'm not even looking to debate the merits of each, as my mind is already made up, and I'm sure most feel the same way about their preferred guy. I just find it interesting that one dude hasn't had to carry his team, thus there are questions about his ability to, but the other hasn't been able to, thus he has a higher upside. weird, right? lol  |
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Post by garytx on Apr 12, 2024 8:30:43 GMT -5
If you are drafting a QB based on his ability to perform against any group of NFL teams QBs, I think you are crazy. To begin with your QB will be competing against defenses not QBs. And second the best QB option is the best future QB for the offense you will run. Your defense has to deal with the opposing team's QB, worry about the defense you field for stopping opposing QBs. Stupid question to my mind. Any elite NFL QB can lead his team to points, and any bad QB will struggle, so just identify an elite QB and give him a good offense team and game plan. that is a great point. thank you for bringing that up. So, really - the question is which QB will make our offense better so that our team can consistently score more points than those teams that make it deep into the playoffs. Those teams are going to be generally the teams led by very good QBs; i.e., Mahomes, Allen.....etc. Having ball control on offense. Keep the other guys offense off the field. Tire their defense down. Don't turn the ball over. And of course be able to score. To do this requires a little bit more than just a good QB. The OL has to be solid and have some kind of running game. |
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Post by jamesbrady2020 on Apr 12, 2024 8:37:30 GMT -5
I understand the appeal of JJM because of the intangibles he brings, but to me, you need the true superstar QB with the superstar talent potential to compete against Mahomes or Josh Allen. Maye is the guy with the highest ceiling and thus, assuming Daniels is taken at 2, that's the guy I would take. Even with the risks he brings, to me it's worth swinging for the fences because if he works out, you have a potential top 5 QB in the league for the next 5 years. I don't think JJM will ever be in that conversation personally.
It's rare to win a Super Bowl with just an average-above average QB in this league. Generally they need to be in the top 5.
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