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Post by croc on May 1, 2016 18:25:38 GMT -5
Bill, I've already hashed my view of the evidence to death. I could do it again, but I'm going to spare everyone that. We all know that p=nRT/V. The variable T is the key here. We all know that if T = 48 degrees fahrenheit the IGL explains some of what is observed as long as the logo gauge was used. (It doesn't explain the wide variance in pressure readings for the Pats' balls, but it does explain the largest drops in pressure.) The question though is what was "T" when the balls were measured at halftime. We don't know exactly, but in my estimation a reasonable assumption is that (if we follow the logo gauge results for both the Pats and Colts balls) it was well above 48 degrees. If we follow the non-logo gauge (the gauge that I believe was probably used), then both the Pats balls and Colts balls were colder than Exponent predicts (they were warming at a slower rate than Exponent's transient analysis predicts). But the Pats balls still are too low given the actual outdoor temperature and still show too wide a variance if we assume they were all originally inflated to the same pressure pregame.The NFL is "assuming" A LOT!!!!!! The refs DID NOT record the pregame PSIs as I posted above. That is BS. The refs only over-inflated both the Pats and Colts balls. They only did the half time PSIs. Why would anyone take a broken needles ("Non logoed") reading seriously, when the had a full length standard needle (the "logoed needle")? Substandard equipment is rejected for scientific results.
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Post by prolate0spheroid on May 1, 2016 18:25:48 GMT -5
Bill, I've already hashed my view of the evidence to death. I could do it again, but I'm going to spare everyone that. We all know that p=nRT/V. The variable T is the key here. We all know that if T = 48 degrees fahrenheit the IGL explains some of what is observed as long as the logo gauge was used. (It doesn't explain the wide variance in pressure readings for the Pats' balls, but it does explain the largest drops in pressure.) The question though is what was "T" when the balls were measured at halftime. We don't know exactly, but in my estimation a reasonable assumption is that (if we follow the logo gauge results for both the Pats and Colts balls) it was well above 48 degrees. If we follow the non-logo gauge (the gauge that I believe was probably used), then both the Pats balls and Colts balls were colder than Exponent predicts (they were warming at a slower rate than Exponent's transient analysis predicts). But the Pats balls still are too low given the actual outdoor temperature and still show too wide a variance if we assume they were all originally inflated to the same pressure pregame.The NFL is "assuming" A LOT!!!!!! Given all the testimony of the Patriots' staff and the officials, I really think that's a fairly safe assumption. You can disagree. But then Brady and Shoenfeld are either liars or stooges who were duped by Jastremski and McNally too.
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Post by prolate0spheroid on May 1, 2016 18:29:14 GMT -5
The NFL is "assuming" A LOT!!!!!! The refs DID NOT record the pregame PSIs as I posted above. That is BS. The refs only over-inflated both the Pats and Colts balls. They only did the half time PSIs. Why would anyone take a broken needles ("Non logoed") reading seriously, when the had a full length standard needle (the "logoed needle")? Substandard equipment is rejected for scientific results. Gauges were tested and found to measure with consistency. No problem with the gauges other than the fact that the logo gauge reads (consistently) about 0.4 psi high. The referees didn't record pregame psi levels, but they said the balls all measured about 12.5 psi and the Patriots' equipment staff and Brady himself all testified that the Patriots' practice is to inflate the balls to 12.6 psi pregame. So, maybe everyone is lying. But more probably than not, the balls were inflated to 12.5 psi.
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Post by croc on May 1, 2016 18:29:33 GMT -5
WE DO NO KNOW WHAT THE PRE-GAME PRESSURES WERE . WE DON"T KNOW WHAT THE FIELD TEMP WAS AS THERE WAS A TEMPERATURE INVERSION.
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Post by croc on May 1, 2016 18:35:56 GMT -5
The refs DID NOT record the pregame PSIs as I posted above. That is BS. The refs only over-inflated both the Pats and Colts balls. They only did the half time PSIs. Why would anyone take a broken needles ("Non logoed") reading seriously, when the had a full length standard needle (the "logoed needle")? Substandard equipment is rejected for scientific results. Gauges were tested and found to measure with consistency. No problem with the gauges other than the fact that the logo gauge reads (consistently) about 0.4 psi high. The referees didn't record pregame psi levels, but they said the balls all measured about 12.5 psi and the Patriots' equipment staff and Brady himself all testified that the Patriots' practice is to inflate the balls to 12.6 psi pregame. So, maybe everyone is lying. But more probably than not, the balls were inflated to 12.5 psi. A high probability is the NFL is lying, the Colts are lying, and the depending on what the Pats equipment guys said they lied. Brady, however specifically told them he wanted the balls between 12.5psi and 13,5psi in his text after the Jets game is quite frankly OUT OF THE LOOP. More probable than not by what ever means the balls started the game within the specified range.
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Post by agcsbill on May 1, 2016 18:45:37 GMT -5
Gauges were tested and found to measure with consistency. No problem with the gauges other than the fact that the logo gauge reads (consistently) about 0.4 psi high. The referees didn't record pregame psi levels, but they said the balls all measured about 12.5 psi and the Patriots' equipment staff and Brady himself all testified that the Patriots' practice is to inflate the balls to 12.6 psi pregame. So, maybe everyone is lying. But more probably than not, the balls were inflated to 12.5 psi. A high probability is the NFL is lying, the Colts are lying, and the depending on what the Pats equipment guys said they lied. Brady, however specifically told them he wanted the balls between 12.5psi and 13,5psi in his text after the Jets game is quite frankly OUT OF THE LOOP. More probable than not by what ever means the balls started the game within the specified range. So, how does the NFL claim Brady wanted the footballs at a PSI LESS than the legal level which is their charge? The NFL is claiming the Patriots used footballs which were set at a level LESS THAN the legal level and Brady has clearly stated he wants it at legal levels. How does Goodell get off claiming Brady is part of a"scheme" to illegally deflate footballs to illegal PSI levels? It does not compute.
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Post by prolate0spheroid on May 1, 2016 18:50:17 GMT -5
A high probability is the NFL is lying, the Colts are lying, and the depending on what the Pats equipment guys said they lied. Brady, however specifically told them he wanted the balls between 12.5psi and 13,5psi in his text after the Jets game is quite frankly OUT OF THE LOOP. More probable than not by what ever means the balls started the game within the specified range. So, how does the NFL claim Brady wanted the footballs at a PSI LESS than the legal level which is their charge? The NFL is claiming the Patriots used footballs which were set at a level LESS THAN the legal level and Brady has clearly stated he wants it at legal levels. How does Goodell get off claiming Brady is part of a"scheme" to illegally deflate footballs to illegal PSI levels? It does not compute. Who said Brady wanted the balls less than 12.5? McNally and Jastremski most likely were just letting a little air out to ensure the refs hadn't put too much in when they checked the balls. Anderson and Yette testified that they added some air to some of the Patriots balls. I'm sure McNally saw this. And I suspect he tried to take a little air out to get them back to where they were when Brady approved them and before the refs added some extra air.
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Post by croc on May 1, 2016 18:52:18 GMT -5
Gauges were tested and found to measure with consistency. No problem with the gauges other than the fact that the logo gauge reads (consistently) about 0.4 psi high.
Scientifically this is a problem. Even if the results are consistent, they are consistently wrong. There is no other standard other than the gauges and needles as requited by the NFL. The "non logoed" gauge needle was shorter than the "logoed gauge needle. The logoed gauge has the standard length needle. That is the standard. The data from the shorter needle would automatically be eliminated.
All other testing is relative.
...Pro so at least we agree Brady is not asking for lower PSI footballs?
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Post by prolate0spheroid on May 1, 2016 19:00:41 GMT -5
Gauges were tested and found to measure with consistency. No problem with the gauges other than the fact that the logo gauge reads (consistently) about 0.4 psi high.Scientifically this is a problem. Even if the results are consistent, they are consistently wrong. There is no other standard other than the gauges and needles as requited by the NFL. The "non logoed" gauge needle was shorter than the "logoed gauge needle. The logoed gauge has the standard length needle. That is the standard. The data from the shorter needle would automatically be eliminated. All other testing is relative. ...Pro so at least we agree Brady is not asking for lower PSI footballs?
Yes, I don't think Brady wanted the balls below 12.5. I think the concern was purely that the referees were adding too much air to the balls when they were checking them in. As I've said before, I also don't know if Brady was aware of anything McNally and Jastremski were up to. I find the evidence against Brady extremely weak. I wouldn't have suspended Brady.
I do, however, agree that it's more probable than not that McNally and Jastremski had a plan to take air out of the balls when they saw the referees add air to them. MY belief is that their intention was never to get the balls below 12.5. I think they just wanted to make sure that the refs hadn't inflated them above the targeted 12.5.
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Post by seawolf on May 1, 2016 19:05:07 GMT -5
What Pro has is, is nothing but ifs, to sound reasonable, which becomes magically probable
All we know is what as written on the half time notes, and even there it is assumed that one of the psi measures was transcribed incorrectly After that it is nothing but his assumptions and Goodell like opinions
We know that based on the same assumptions as Exponent that 4 major scientific authorities have debunked Exponent. Including an MIT professor that teaches a course on events just like this
We know at one time z had Pro come into the light briefly. Then Z left And then Pro went to the 1 ball theory that could not be explained ( of course there are multiple reasons for this) Now he is back parsing that it is multiple balls with double talk on guages
And of course it his ultimate fantasy that is slime like JJ and McNally who are to blame and Kraft for having them. It is also curious that Pro never questions the tactics of Goodell and never citicizs them either. Or is it?
Evidently people like Pro aren't really for the little guy and neither are the NFL owners.
I do know that having Chin as a judge is just a little worse than having Pro involved in hiring or firing anybody
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