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Post by TFB12 on Feb 3, 2024 16:27:57 GMT -5
Albert Breer
@albertbreer
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7m
The Patriots are in talks to add ex-Giants coach Ben McAdoo to their offensive staff, per sources. He’s likely to play an assistant head coach type of role, and help OC Alex Van Pelt on that side of the ball.
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Very possible the reports earlier about Steve Belichick going to the college program are true. He's out and the Pats bringing in McAdoo?
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Post by rkarp on Feb 3, 2024 16:59:32 GMT -5
I think if anyone was wondering, Eliot Wolf is in charge of this team
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Post by rkarp on Feb 3, 2024 17:13:01 GMT -5
I don't like to value acoordinator based on his results as a HC for anothe team.
Josh was a really good OC. MattP was a really good DC. Judge was a really good STC.
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Post by mbeaulieu07 on Feb 3, 2024 17:20:20 GMT -5
I think if anyone was wondering, Eliot Wolf is in charge of this team It's a good point. A lot of ties to Green Bay, from back in the day. |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 3, 2024 17:50:59 GMT -5
Bringing in a more experienced assistant head coach, particularly one with experience on offense, would be a great addition, I think.
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Post by ucmiami on Feb 3, 2024 18:07:16 GMT -5
I don't like to value acoordinator based on his results as a HC for anothe team. Josh was a really good OC. MattP was a really good DC. Judge was a really good STC. As a OC he hasn't exactly knocked it out of the park either. After his HC gig, he only two coaching jobs were: QB coach for Jacksonville in 2020 (1-15) and OC for Carolina in 2022 (7-10). He had a consultant job with Dallas in 2021. As OC for NYG he was 12-20 and as HC he 13-15.
In GB he was TE coach when they won a SB, and then QB coach before he moved on and AVP replaced him as QB coach moving from RB coach.
Does this mean the Pats are going to the Mike McCarthy coaching tree (Marty Shottenheimer, Mike Nolan, Jim Haslett?) Seems a bit 'old school' which I have no trouble with.
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Post by rkarp on Feb 3, 2024 18:17:47 GMT -5
I don't like to value acoordinator based on his results as a HC for anothe team. Josh was a really good OC. MattP was a really good DC. Judge was a really good STC. As a OC he hasn't exactly knocked it out of the park either. After his HC gig, he only two coaching jobs were: QB coach for Jacksonville in 2020 (1-15) and OC for Carolina in 2022 (7-10). He had a consultant job with Dallas in 2021. As OC for NYG he was 12-20 and as HC he 13-15.
In GB he was TE coach when they won a SB, and then QB coach before he moved on and AVP replaced him as QB coach moving from RB coach.
Does this mean the Pats are going to the Mike McCarthy coaching tree (Marty Shottenheimer, Mike Nolan, Jim Haslett?) Seems a bit 'old school' which I have no trouble with.
he did have a good 2 year OC run with the Giants, 2014 & 2015. Guants went from 28th to 13th to 6th for scoring in his 2 years his first season as HC with the Giants he did go 11-6 and into the playoffs, 2016 2017 the wheels came off and he was gone mid season he has not really been relevent since all these guys have ties to Shanahan from what I can see |
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Post by carawaydj on Feb 3, 2024 19:09:47 GMT -5
I think if anyone was wondering, Eliot Wolf is in charge of this team This is what Reiss basically reported a few days ago. And we know Reiss doesn't speculate or engage in gossip. Wolf is the GM, official or not. We can all put away the pitchforks and go back home. They have a guy in charge. |
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Post by carawaydj on Feb 3, 2024 19:13:11 GMT -5
Bringing in a more experienced assistant head coach, particularly one with experience on offense, would be a great addition, I think. Yeah, that is what a lot of people here have been worrying about and wanting…experience. It matters. |
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Post by thejuice on Feb 3, 2024 19:19:40 GMT -5
Bringing in a more experienced assistant head coach, particularly one with experience on offense, would be a great addition, I think. it would be... but is that guy ben mcadoo? |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 3, 2024 20:52:42 GMT -5
Bringing in a more experienced assistant head coach, particularly one with experience on offense, would be a great addition, I think. it would be... but is that guy ben mcadoo? Isn't the problem always that the guys who on paper might seem to be the best already have jobs? You kind of have to pick from who is available and you may not have a lot of choice. McAdoo seemed to have McCarthy's trust (he worked with him for quite some time—at the Saints, 49ers, and Packers) and also had initial good success with the Giants until he benched Eli Manning and got fired (along with the Giants' GM) for doing so. Since that firing he's had a few years where he hasn't really stuck anywhere. But he is experienced as both an OC and a HC. I think the important thing right now is getting coaches who have at least decent skills, some experience, and, most important, share a common vision and can work together well as a team. So if the chemistry between McAdoo, Mayo, Van Pelt, Covington, and Springer is good, let's see what they can do as a team. Mayo has said his management style is collaborative and inclusive—so I think there's a sense that the whole is going to be greater than the parts, and that it's not just one guy setting the tone for the whole organization as maybe Bill Belichick tended to do. |
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Post by thejuice on Feb 3, 2024 21:30:44 GMT -5
it would be... but is that guy ben mcadoo? Isn't the problem always that the guys who on paper might seem to be the best already have jobs? You kind of have to pick from who is available and you may not have a lot of choice. McAdoo seemed to have McCarthy's trust (he worked with him for quite some time—at the Saints, 49ers, and Packers) and also had initial good success with the Giants until he benched Eli Manning and got fired (along with the Giants' GM) for doing so. Since that firing he's had a few years where he hasn't really stuck anywhere. But he is experienced as both an OC and a HC. I think the important thing right now is getting coaches who have at least decent skills, some experience, and, most important, share a common vision and can work together well as a team. So if the chemistry between McAdoo, Mayo, Van Pelt, Covington, and Springer is good, let's see what they can do as a team. Mayo has said his management style is collaborative and inclusive—so I think there's a sense that the whole is going to be greater than the parts, and that it's not just one guy setting the tone for the whole organization as maybe Bill Belichick tended to do. no doubt that one thing this staff lacks is experience, so i am all for bringing in as many coaches that have experience. for that reason, i like the interest in guys like mcadoo... i was just simply posing the question is mcadoo the right hire? as i just said, i agree we need to hire more guys to this staff with experience like him... just hope we choose the right ones... so while im not sure ben m is that guy, i am glad they are at least looking into adding more experienced coaches to this staff... so its a step in the right direction... guess the question is how many steps is it? |
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Post by TFB12 on Feb 3, 2024 21:44:54 GMT -5
I don't like to value acoordinator based on his results as a HC for anothe team. Josh was a really good OC. MattP was a really good DC. Judge was a really good STC. Those 3 guys have been bad everywhere else... Josh McD OC on the Rams.. bad! He was calling offensive plays in Denver and LV.. bad! Matty P in Detroit bad! Calling defensive plays in Detroit..bad! Calling defensive plays in Philly.... bad. Judge HC with the Giants...bad. They have really only been good in NE. And for Matty P.. I prefer Flores as DC over Matty P in NE. Patricia as DC was some of the worst Patriots defenses over the past 20 years. |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 3, 2024 21:59:32 GMT -5
Isn't the problem always that the guys who on paper might seem to be the best already have jobs? You kind of have to pick from who is available and you may not have a lot of choice. McAdoo seemed to have McCarthy's trust (he worked with him for quite some time—at the Saints, 49ers, and Packers) and also had initial good success with the Giants until he benched Eli Manning and got fired (along with the Giants' GM) for doing so. Since that firing he's had a few years where he hasn't really stuck anywhere. But he is experienced as both an OC and a HC. I think the important thing right now is getting coaches who have at least decent skills, some experience, and, most important, share a common vision and can work together well as a team. So if the chemistry between McAdoo, Mayo, Van Pelt, Covington, and Springer is good, let's see what they can do as a team. Mayo has said his management style is collaborative and inclusive—so I think there's a sense that the whole is going to be greater than the parts, and that it's not just one guy setting the tone for the whole organization as maybe Bill Belichick tended to do. no doubt that one thing this staff lacks is experience, so i am all for bringing in as many coaches that have experience. for that reason, i like the interest in guys like mcadoo... i was just simply posing the question is mcadoo the right hire? as i just said, i agree we need to hire more guys to this staff with experience like him... just hope we choose the right ones... so while im not sure ben m is that guy, i am glad they are at least looking into adding more experienced coaches to this staff... so its a step in the right direction... guess the question is how many steps is it? Honestly, I think it's impossible for any of us to predict. We just don't know enough about what Mayo or these hires and potential hires are thinking. What I do like is the following: - Covington is promoted from within and that signals Mayo is trying to preserve BB's successful defense as much as possible.
- Van Pelt has decent experience as an OC and as a QB coach (with some good QBs); he brings a new style to the offense, is a clean break from the BB offensive coaching tree, and seems to have skill developing young QBs
- McAdoo if they bring him in is a relatively experienced offensive coach and therefore complements Mayo whose experience is all on the defensive side; I'd assume his main role would be to team up with Van Pelt to develop the offensive strategy
Springer is the hardest to assess because his experience is thin, but maybe they see him as an up and coming young coach.
What matters the most, though, may be the way these guys work together as a team—and that's something we just won't know until we see them in action.
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Post by muzwell on Feb 3, 2024 22:07:09 GMT -5
His sheer incompetence as a coach at every level is a good fit with this organization. Like a glove.
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Post by wazzu on Feb 3, 2024 22:37:24 GMT -5
His sheer incompetence as a coach at every level is a good fit with this organization. Like a glove. lol. Outstanding post. Unfortunately it’s spot on. |
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Post by thejuice on Feb 3, 2024 23:09:36 GMT -5
no doubt that one thing this staff lacks is experience, so i am all for bringing in as many coaches that have experience. for that reason, i like the interest in guys like mcadoo... i was just simply posing the question is mcadoo the right hire? as i just said, i agree we need to hire more guys to this staff with experience like him... just hope we choose the right ones... so while im not sure ben m is that guy, i am glad they are at least looking into adding more experienced coaches to this staff... so its a step in the right direction... guess the question is how many steps is it? Honestly, I think it's impossible for any of us to predict. We just don't know enough about what Mayo or these hires and potential hires are thinking. What I do like is the following: - Covington is promoted from within and that signals Mayo is trying to preserve BB's successful defense as much as possible.
- Van Pelt has decent experience as an OC and as a QB coach (with some good QBs); he brings a new style to the offense, is a clean break from the BB offensive coaching tree, and seems to have skill developing young QBs
- McAdoo if they bring him in is a relatively experienced offensive coach and therefore complements Mayo whose experience is all on the defensive side; I'd assume his main role would be to team up with Van Pelt to develop the offensive strategy
Springer is the hardest to assess because his experience is thin, but maybe they see him as an up and coming young coach.
What matters the most, though, may be the way these guys work together as a team—and that's something we just won't know until we see them in action.
While I agree with you that we don’t know anything at this point how anything will work out, how can you call the Mayo regime thus far as a success as you did earlier today? It’s neither a success or a failure at this point because there’s not enough information and evidence of anything yet to formulate an actual conclusion |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 4, 2024 6:13:56 GMT -5
Honestly, I think it's impossible for any of us to predict. We just don't know enough about what Mayo or these hires and potential hires are thinking. What I do like is the following: - Covington is promoted from within and that signals Mayo is trying to preserve BB's successful defense as much as possible.
- Van Pelt has decent experience as an OC and as a QB coach (with some good QBs); he brings a new style to the offense, is a clean break from the BB offensive coaching tree, and seems to have skill developing young QBs
- McAdoo if they bring him in is a relatively experienced offensive coach and therefore complements Mayo whose experience is all on the defensive side; I'd assume his main role would be to team up with Van Pelt to develop the offensive strategy
Springer is the hardest to assess because his experience is thin, but maybe they see him as an up and coming young coach.
What matters the most, though, may be the way these guys work together as a team—and that's something we just won't know until we see them in action.
While I agree with you that we don’t know anything at this point how anything will work out, how can you call the Mayo regime thus far as a success as you did earlier today? It’s neither a success or a failure at this point because there’s not enough information and evidence of anything yet to formulate an actual conclusion It's a success given the goals of the first three weeks. He's moving quickly to build a coaching team, and I think the initial choices seem good. A failure would be if hiring were taking too long and we were risking not having a team in place as free agency gets close. |
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Post by backbay on Feb 4, 2024 6:57:31 GMT -5
it would be... but is that guy ben mcadoo? Isn't the problem always that the guys who on paper might seem to be the best already have jobs? You kind of have to pick from who is available and you may not have a lot of choice. McAdoo seemed to have McCarthy's trust (he worked with him for quite some time—at the Saints, 49ers, and Packers) and also had initial good success with the Giants until he benched Eli Manning and got fired (along with the Giants' GM) for doing so. Since that firing he's had a few years where he hasn't really stuck anywhere. But he is experienced as both an OC and a HC. I think the important thing right now is getting coaches who have at least decent skills, some experience, and, most important, share a common vision and can work together well as a team. So if the chemistry between McAdoo, Mayo, Van Pelt, Covington, and Springer is good, let's see what they can do as a team. Mayo has said his management style is collaborative and inclusive—so I think there's a sense that the whole is going to be greater than the parts, and that it's not just one guy setting the tone for the whole organization as maybe Bill Belichick tended to do. good post. I think Mayo and his coaching staff should be given the opportunity to rebuild team I think it will take at least 4 more years; and expecting a .500ish team in year 1 if the land a QB at #3 and shore up the OL.....and pick up 6-7 capable players on offensive side of ball, and a new FG kicker/punter. I think the unknown and speculation about what fans would like to see happen is fueling the fear.... |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 4, 2024 8:20:56 GMT -5
Isn't the problem always that the guys who on paper might seem to be the best already have jobs? You kind of have to pick from who is available and you may not have a lot of choice. McAdoo seemed to have McCarthy's trust (he worked with him for quite some time—at the Saints, 49ers, and Packers) and also had initial good success with the Giants until he benched Eli Manning and got fired (along with the Giants' GM) for doing so. Since that firing he's had a few years where he hasn't really stuck anywhere. But he is experienced as both an OC and a HC. I think the important thing right now is getting coaches who have at least decent skills, some experience, and, most important, share a common vision and can work together well as a team. So if the chemistry between McAdoo, Mayo, Van Pelt, Covington, and Springer is good, let's see what they can do as a team. Mayo has said his management style is collaborative and inclusive—so I think there's a sense that the whole is going to be greater than the parts, and that it's not just one guy setting the tone for the whole organization as maybe Bill Belichick tended to do. good post. I think Mayo and his coaching staff should be given the opportunity to rebuild team I think it will take at least 4 more years; and expecting a .500ish team in year 1 if the land a QB at #3 and shore up the OL.....and pick up 6-7 capable players on offensive side of ball, and a new FG kicker/punter. I think the unknown and speculation about what fans would like to see happen is fueling the fear…. I'd like to see steady progress in 2024 and 2025, with the team being in contention for the playoffs by the 2026 season, which would mean being able to get 9 or 10 wins at least in 2026. I'd be happy if in 2024 they could be a 7 or 8 win team. More important, though is getting the offensive production near league average rather than at the bottom of the league without dropping off too much on defense. The exact number of wins in 2024 is less important to me than seeing real improvement in production. Ideally in year two, 2025, the team is competitive with some of the better teams in the league and can notch at least 8 or 9 wins. The chart below shows the offensive performance of all 32 teams in the 2023 regular season. I've arranged the teams in order of most net yards to least net yards (the blue bars at the bottom). The top bars show how each of the teams did on all their down series (except those when time ran out at the end of the half or end of game). Basically, if you see a lot of green, the team moved the ball well. Dark green means they ended the down series with a TD, light green with another first down. If you see a lot of red and orange the team stalled out a lot. Red means they stalled out by turning the ball over or getting a safety. Orange means they turned the ball over in a more controlled fashion (punt, downs, missed FG). Yellow means they stalled out but made a FG, so it's sort of a glass half full ending. Note that the Patriots are really dismal—only the Jets and Giants are close to as bad. Cleveland (where Van Pelt was OC) is interesting as it has a pretty good green bar but an unusually high amount of orange and red. I think this is explained by the fact that they were able to sustain a lot of drives with a low yards-per-play average (lots of short plays), but still ended up stalling out before they got into FG range. They were number 1 in TOP, but had a lot of interceptions and fumbles. Not sure what to make of that other than that the Browns offense was pretty productive in total yards and points given its low yards-per-play average and the relatively high percentage of times its drives stalled out or ended in turnovers.  |
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Post by lioneljoe on Feb 4, 2024 8:21:35 GMT -5
I think if anyone was wondering, Eliot Wolf is in charge of this team This is what Reiss basically reported a few days ago. And we know Reiss doesn't speculate or engage in gossip. Wolf is the GM, official or not. We can all put away the pitchforks and go back home. They have a guy in charge. But we have been told that now that Belichick is gone, "job titles matter" . So why can't the Patriots just name a GM? What's the shell game here and why? |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 4, 2024 8:30:29 GMT -5
This is what Reiss basically reported a few days ago. And we know Reiss doesn't speculate or engage in gossip. Wolf is the GM, official or not. We can all put away the pitchforks and go back home. They have a guy in charge. But we have been told that now that Belichick is gone, "job titles matter" . So why can't the Patriots just name a GM? What's the shell game here and why? I don't think Wolf is the GM. I don't think the Pats believe they need a GM—at least if you structure the GM role as the one guy in charge of both the coaching staff and the talent acquisition staff. Wolf seems to lead talent acquisition (or scouting). Mayo leads coaching. I think they are equals in the org structure (or maybe Groh and Mayo are equals, with Wolf reporting to Groh). A "GM" is usually perceived to be the top position, with both talent acquisition and coaching reporting up to him. I think the Pats have pretty much rejected this model, even when Belichick was coach as they never gave him the GM title either. At least that's my take. |
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Post by kcpatsfan on Feb 4, 2024 8:46:45 GMT -5
Very possible the reports earlier about Steve Belichick going to the college program are true. He's out and the Pats bringing in McAdoo? What's the link? Are they mutually exclusive or is it a numbers cap? (it there a Coaching cap?) |
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Post by prolate0spheroid on Feb 4, 2024 8:48:33 GMT -5
Another point on this. From what we've heard, BB's demise seems to have been his inability to take input from the scouts and others on the talent acquisition team. I think Kraft believes in collaborative leadership where experts in different areas all have input. BB could maybe get away with being the dominant voice in the room, overruling everyone else, while the team was winning, but once the team started losing his control of everything was not seen as productive anymore. They were trying to force him to be more collaborative and apparently he was not good at that.
They don't want a leadership team where one guy is the big, dominant boss, I don't think. They want a team where they are going to be inclusive with diverse opinions and a collaborative method of making decisions. I suspect that's how Kraft runs his other businesses. And I suspect that's why he may not think a GM is necessary.
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Post by kcpatsfan on Feb 4, 2024 8:51:51 GMT -5
But we have been told that now that Belichick is gone, "job titles matter" . So why can't the Patriots just name a GM? Could that have been said just to show they're now different from BB days? |
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